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![[ Maison Gagnon, février 2004, Peter Gossage, ]](../../images/site/2979_2.jpg "[ Maison Gagnon, février 2004, Peter Gossage, ]")
C A N A D A
PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
DISTRICT OF QUEBEC
IN THE COURT OF KING'S BENCH
(CRIMINAL JURISDICTION)
PRESENT:
THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE L. P. PELLETIER
THE KING
V
MARIE-ANNE HOUDE, accused of murder
This fifteenth day of April nineteen hundred and twenty appeared Marie-Jeanne Gagnon, of Ste. Philomène de Fortierville, aged twelve (12) years, witness produced by the Crown who, being sworn on the Holy Gospels, doth depose and say:
EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. How old are you?
A. Twelve (12) years old.
Q. You are Télesphore Gagnon's daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. And stepdaughter of the accused here?
A. Yes.
Q. Try to speak loudly so the Jurors can hear you?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you live with your father?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that you were living with your parents?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a sister named Aurore Gagnon?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you at home when she died?
A. Yes.
— 2 —Q. How old was she?
A. Ten (10) years old.
BY THE COURT: Aurore was ten years old?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Was Aurore your full sister?
A. Yes.
BY THE COURT: So you were two children of Telesphore Gagnon?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Now, during the year preceding her death, were you.... Did you live in the same house as her?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what was happening at home?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anything in particular happen regarding Aurore?
A. Yes, I found out that she was burning her with a poker.
Q. Who was burning her with a poker?
A. It was Maman.
Q. Now, before burning her with a poker -- before that -- did anything else happen?
A. Yes, it's regarding her foot....
Q. Begin at the beginning. If anything happened, tell us. Begin at the beginning. The first time you noticed anything?
A. It was last summer.
Q. Last summer. What happened last summer?
A. It's regarding her foot.
Q. What is it that happened regarding her foot?
A. The day before she took a piece of wood. She beat her on her foot. Her foot swelled up.
Q. What kind of piece of wood did she take?
A. A piece of board.
— 3 —Q. How thick and how long was that piece of wood?
A. It was about as thick as one (1) finger.
Q. How long?
A. About this long (indicating) (the witness indicates two and a half feet).
Q. What did she beat her like that for?
A. I can't remember exactly what she beat her for that time.
Q. Did you see her beat her?
A. Yes.
Q. So where did she beat her?
A. She beat her on her feet.
Q. Where? In what place? Was this inside the house or outside?
A. It was inside the house.
Q. Did she hit her only on one foot?
A. On both.
Q. On both?
A. ....
Q. Now, after having beaten her as you have just said with the piece of wood, what happened to Aurore?
A. She had....her foot swelled up and, to begin with, the next day she sent her into a field.... sent her to see if her little boy had come back.
Q. Which little boy?
A. Her two little boys.
Q. Your mother's two sons?
A. Yes.
Q. What are their names?
A. Georges Gagnon and Gérard.
Q. And then?
A. She left. When she left, I myself noticed that she had a swollen foot, just like she had when she came back. When she came back, she said that it was the Bédard boy....
Q. Who said it was the Bédard boy?
A. The little boys.... Aurore said it was the Gagnon boy and Gérard....
— 4 —Q. What are you saying. You're saying your little sister left for the field?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when she came back, what did she say?
A. She said -- her foot had been just as swollen when she had left -- she said that Eugene Bédard and Alfred Gagnon were the ones who had done that to her. Myself, I think it's because.... she was afraid of getting beaten when she got back.
Q. Now, after that incident, Mademoiselle, did your little sister Aurore stay at home?
A. No, she was in the hospital.
Q. She was in the hospital. Do you know where?
A. At the Hôtel Dieu.
Q. At the Hôtel Dieu in Quebec City?
A. ....
Q. Now, were you there when she came back home after having been in the hospital?
A. Yes.
Q. Did anything strange happen when she came back home?
A. She did nothing for a month. After a month she began to mistreat her.
Q. Was there snow on the ground when she began to mistreat her?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember around which month she began to mistreat her, as you put it?
A. In December.
Q. What did she do to her?
A. She began by beating her. She would beat her. She wouldn't give her a bed to sleep in.
Q. What would she beat her with?
A. With pieces of board.
Q. Pieces of board?
A. ....And also pieces of barrel staves as well.
Q. Do you remember how big the pieces of board were?
A. How big the pieces of board were?
— 5 —Q. Yes?
A. They were about the same size as I told you for her foot.
Q. Would she often beat her as you have just said?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times?
A. She would beat her almost every day.
Q. What would she beat her like that for?
A. As soon as she would....sometimes she would give her some chore to do. If she took a bit of time, she would beat her for it.
Q. Now, what would she beat her with?
A. With those pieces of wood.
Q. Would she beat her with anything else as well?
A. She also beat her with switches.
Q. Did she beat her with anything else?
A. With a whip as well.
Q. Was it with the whip that's here?
A. No.
Q. Not that one?
A. ....
Q. When she beat her with switches, was it with the two switches that are here?
A. She would beat her with one -- one that's here.
Q. Which one of the two? The red one or the brown one?
A. The white one (Exhibit P3).
Q. The white one?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did she beat her with anything else?
A. She also beat her with the poker.
Q. With the poker. Was it with the poker that's here?
A. Yes.
Q. Would she beat her often?
A. Yes, she beat her often.
— 6 —Q. So, where would she beat her? Where would she hit her?
A. She hit her two or three (2-3) times on the head that I was aware of.
Q. Did she hit her hard or lightly?
A. She hit her hard enough to make her head swell up.
Q. Now, after having hit her on the head, did she hit her elsewhere?
A. Yes, on her knees.
Q. How would she hit her on her knees?
A. She hit her with a piece of wood and her knees swelled up. That's what hurt her knee so badly.
Q. What would your little sister do while she was being beaten like that?
A. She would scream. She said that if she screamed, she'd get hit some more. She said that if she screamed, she'd get hit some more.
Q. Now, Mademoiselle, you spoke.... If I understood correctly, you said your mother had burned her?
A. Yes.
Q. When did she burn your little sister for the first time?
A. In January.
Q. Now, what did she burn her for?
A. Because she would go everywhere. Maman was the one who didn't want to give her the chamber pot...
Q. Why did she burn her?
A. Because she didn't want to give her the chamber pot, she would go everywhere. She would burn her for that.
Q. Who didn't want to give her the chamber pot?
A. Maman.
BY THE COURT: You're saying she would relieve herself elsewhere than where she was supposed to?
A. Yes, because Maman didn't want to give her the chamber pot.
Q. Because your mother didn't want to give her the chamber pot?
A. .....
BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
— 7 —Q. Why didn't she want to give her the chamber pot?
A. She said that it was to make her do penance.
Q. Did you hear her say that?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did she take the chamber pot away from her like that?
A. For a month.
Q. Could the child go outside?
A. No.
Q. Why?
A. She didn't want her to go outside and....
BY THE COURT: Who didn't?
Q. Maman. And when she would let her go outside she wouldn't give her anything to put on her feet.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Now, you said that she had burned her. Did you see her burn her?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she burn her with?
A. With a poker.
Q. Was it with the poker that's here?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how did she go about burning her?
A. She would tie her to the table.
Q. Whom would she tie?
A. Aurore.
Q. How would she tie her?
A. She would tie her to the table by her feet, with a rope.
Q. Would you please look at Exhibit P6 and say whether you have ever seen that rope before?
A. Yes.
Q. Where have you seen it?
A. I saw it.... She tied my little sister to the table with it.
BY THE COURT: She tied your little sister to the table with it?
A. Yes, Monsieur.
— 8 —BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. When you say that she burned her with a poker, have you ever seen the poker [that is] here before the Court?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the poker?
A. Yes.
Q. How did she go about burning her?
A. She would tie her to the table. She would burn her with the poker. She would burn her all over.
Q. Where would she heat up the poker?
A. In the stove door.
Q. Were you there when she burned her?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you say anything yourself?
A. No. She would make us watch out the window to see if anyone was coming.
Q. She would make you watch out the window to see if anyone was coming?
A. Yes.
Q. What would your little sister do while she was being burned like that?
A. She would scream. She would scream and once she gagged her with a leather strap.
Q. You're saying she did what to her?
A. She gagged her with a leather strap.
Q. Would you please look at the leather strap I'm showing you and say whether you have ever seen it before?
A. Yes.
Q. Where have you seen it?
A. She tied her.... She gagged her with that leather strap.
Q. (Produced as Exhibit P14). Would you please look at this damper and the lid lifter and the damper and say whether you have ever seen it before?
A. Yes, she would burn her fingers with that.
Q. You saw that, Mademoiselle?
— 9 —A. Yes.
Q. You're certain of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see her heat up the poker?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know if it was very hot when she burned her?
A. Oh yes. It was red.
Q. So what would happen? Did you notice anything?
A. She screamed. I noticed that she was screaming. My little sister was screaming while she burned her.
Q. Could you smell anything in the room?
A. Yes.
Q. What?
A. It smelled.... She would only stop burning her when the house smelled strongly of something burning, of burnt skin.
Q. So where would she burn her?
A. She burned her all over.
Q. All over? Where?
A. On her legs, on her feet, on her thighs.
Q. Now, did you see your little sister before she died?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you notice whether she had many sores on her legs and on her thighs?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what caused those sores?
A. The sores.... It's because she would burn her with a poker and because she beat her as well.
Q. Have you seen this curling iron [before], Mademoiselle?
A. Yes.
Q. Where have you seen it?
A. Maman would pull her hair out....
Q. Can you say where you have seen it?
A. I saw it at home.
Q. To whom did it belong?
A. It was Maman's.
— 10 —Q. Were you the one who handed it over to the Law?
A. Yes.
Q. To whom did you give it?
A. I gave it to Monsieur Couture.
Q. Have you ever seen this curling iron in the hands of your mother?
A. Yes.
Q. What would she use it for?
A. She pulled out my little sister's hair with it.
Q. When did that happen?
A. ....It happened fifteen (15) days before she died.
Q. Did you see her do it often?
A. Yes, she did it two or three (2-3) times.
Q. Now, did you sleep in the same room as your little sister?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw her every day.
A. Yes.
Q. How did your little sister behave?
A. I thought she behaved well myself, aside from the chamber pot.
Q. What was going on regarding the chamber pot?
A. She didn't want to give it to her. Then she would make her out to be.... She would tell everyone she was dirty.
Q. You're saying she behaved well, except for the chamber pot. Was it her fault, regarding the chamber pot?
A. No.
Q. Where did your little sister sleep?
A. She slept upstairs.
Q. Did she have a bed?
A. She had a bed only two (2) days before she died.
Q. Did you have a bed yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the other children have a bed?
A. Yes.
Q. So where did she sleep before she had a bed?
— 11 —A. She slept on the floor in her room.
Q. Did she have any blankets?
A. No.
Q. Now, would she eat with the rest of you?
A. She ate.... she would only eat with the rest of us from time to time.
Q. Why was that?
A. Because she would give her her portion. She said she didn't want to give her any more.
Q. Did she always have something to eat?
A. No, sometimes.... Once she let her go four (4) meals without
eating.
Q. Did you ever speak to anyone about this, about what was happening at home last winter?
A. No.
Q. Why didn't you ever talk about it?
A. Because she didn't want us to talk about it. She said that we would get a good thrashing if we spoke about it.
Q. Have you ever had a thrashing?
A. Yes.
Q. From whom?
A. From Maman.
Q. Did it happen often?
A. This winter she beat me three (3) times.
Q. With what?
A. Once with the poker and another time with a piece of wood.
BY THE COURT: You yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. She beat you?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Now, was there anything the matter with your little sister's head when she died?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Was there anything the matter with your little sister's head when she died?
— 12 —A. Yes, her head was swollen.
Q. Where did the swelling on her head come from?
A. It's because she had hit her.
Q. Who had hit her?
A. Maman.
Q. Where were those blows dealt?
A. She.... It was with the poker. She beat her on the head.
Q. And when did she beat her like that on the head?
A. It was fifteen (15) days before she died.
Q. Now, aside from the poker?....
A. She beat her.... She also beat her with a pitchfork handle.
Q. We'll come back to that in a little while. But aside from that, had the child hurt herself on her own?
A. In January she hurt her eye.
Q. Where?
A. On the stove, after she had been....
Q. After she hurt herself on the stove, did she get better or did she remain sick?
A. She got better. Afterward, Maman hit her on her left eye with a piece of wood and her eye remained swollen until she died.
Q. Did you see her hit her?
A. Yes.
Q. How big, how thick and how long was that piece of wood?
A. It was a piece of wood from a barrel.
Q. How long and how thick was it?
A. About this long (the witness indicates about two feet long).
Q. Do you remember the day your little sister died?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you sleep with her that night?
A. No.
— 13 —Q. Did you sleep with her the night preceding her death?
A. No.
Q. Where did your little sister sleep?
A. She slept on the floor, on a straw mattress.
Q. Did you see the straw mattress that Detective Couture produced here?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that straw mattress hers?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she sleep alone the night before she died??
A. No...yes, she slept alone.
Q. Did she sleep upstairs or downstairs?
A. Upstairs.
Q. Now, did you see your little sister on the morning of the day she died?
A. Yes.
Q. So, where did you see her?
A. She was upstairs. Then afterward Papa left to go work. Maman went upstairs. She said, "That cow won't stay in bed all day."
Q. Did you go up with you [sic]?
A. No, she came downstairs and Maman went upstairs all alone....
Q. Do you know what happened upstairs?
A. No. Nothing happened upstairs.
Q. Did she speak to your little sister?
A. Yes, she spoke to my little sister.
Q. Did you hear her?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she say?
A. She was telling her to get up. She said, "You'd better go downstairs if you don't want me to throw you down from the top of the stairs."
Q. In what condition was your sister at the time?
A. She could barely hold herself up alone anymore.
Q. Can you tell us what happened after that?
A. What happened after that.... She went downstairs. She
— 14 —fell against the stove and Maman....
Q. Why did she fall against the stove like that?
A. She was too weak.
Q. She collapsed there?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened?
A. Maman took the pitchfork handle...
Q. Would you please look at this pitchfork handle here?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell us whether it's the one?
A. Yes, that's the one.
Q. And then?
A. She hit her three (3) times. She then collapsed completely.
Q. What happened after that?
A. Afterward I picked her up myself.
Q. She collapsed on the floor, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do?
A. Afterwards I picked her up myself and then Maman.... Then Maman washed her. She put her in bed.
Q. What condition was she in?
A. She was.... She was half dead.
Q. At what time did she die?
A. She died at seven o'clock in the evening.
Q. Would you please look at the pitchfork handle that is here -- you can see it there -- and tell us whether you have ever seen that pitchfork handle before?
A. Yes.
Q. Where have you seen it?
A. I saw it at home.
Q. Is that the pitchfork handle she used?
A. Yes.
— 15 —Q. Where did she put it afterwards?
A. She threw it away.
Q. Where?
A. In the kitchen.
Q. Now, did your little sister sleep at home? In the house?
A. One evening, she sent her to fill up her straw mattress at about four o'clock and she had..... She had made her put on nothing but big shoes -- [she had] no stockings on her feet -- and when she arrived at the barn she was...her feet were frozen. She wrapped herself up in the straw mattress. She stayed there and Maman went with a switch. She beat her with the switch and chased her up into the hayloft.
Q. Now, I think you said that, after she had been hit on the head, her head swelled up?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did your mother make any comment upon seeing the child's head like that?
A. She said that it was a good thing. That she wouldn't have to bother sending her to Reform School, that her head was starting to soften.
Q. Have you ever telephoned your mother?
A. Yes.
Q. At whose home was your mother?
A. She was at the home of my Uncle "Tibé" Badaud.
Q. At the home of your Uncle "Tibé" Badaud?
A. Yes, his real name is Joseph Badaud.
Q. So what did you telephone her about?
A. Aurore was asking that she come home right away because she needed her.
Q. Was that long before she died?
A. ....On Tuesday and she died on Thursday.
Q. And what did she answer to that?
A. She answered, "Let her rot. It will be good riddance." She said she would leave when she was ready.
— 16 —Q. Has your mother ever spoken to you about the testimony you would be giving here today?
A. ....
Q. Pardon?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she tell you?
A. She told me not to talk.
Q. Your stepmother, the accused?
BY THE COURT: Madame Gagnon...?
A. Yes.
Q. Told you not to talk?
A. Yes.
Q. How did she tell you that?
A. She told me not to talk...
BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Not today's testimony -- I'm not making myself clear, --
BY THE COURT: She can't have spoken to her; she's in prison.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN
Q. Did she ever speak to you after her arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she tell you?
A. She said not to talk. She said not to talk.
BY THE COURT: Where?
A. Not to talk about what had happened, when I would come back to Court.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. Now, would you please look at an exhibit that appears to be a letter addressed to Gédéon Gagnon, and say whether you are the one who had that letter and to whom you turned it over?
A. I turned it over to Monsieur Couture.
BY THE COURT: Did you say it was a letter that came from your mother?
A. Yes.
Q. The accused, Madame Gagnon?
A. Yes.
— 17 —( At 11.30 a.m., the Court takes a 10-minute recess. The session resumes at 11.45 a.m.).
BY THE COURT: Listen to me, my little girl. How is it that you're the one who had this letter in your possession and that you gave it to Monsieur Couture? Where did you get that letter?
A. Pepère [Grandpa] was the one who received it. They didn't know how to read so I read it.
Q. Your Pepère was the one who received it? They didn't know how to read so you read it?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you able to swear that Madame Gagnon was the one who wrote it?
A. I can tell it was her from the handwriting. Because I know, I recognize her handwriting.
Maître Francoeur, K. C., counsel for the accused, objects to the production of the letter.
Q. The envelope, which is with the letter, is addressed to Gédéon Gagnon. That is your grandfather?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hand over both the envelope and the letter to Monsieur Couture?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. You said that your mother wouldn't give your little sister the chamber pot?
A. Yes.
Q. So now, when she would go, where would she go?
A. All over, on the floor.
Q. All over, on the floor?
A. And she....
Q. Now, did she ever go on your father's clothes?
A. No, Maman's the one who did that.
Q. Your mother's the one who did that. What did your mother do?
— 18 —A. She put some inside them to make it appear that she did it.
BY THE COURT: Your Maman would put filth in your father's clothes to make it appear that your little sister had done it?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
A. So when your little sister would go downstairs, where would she be?
A. When she would go downstairs, she made her....
Q. Where would she be? Did she have a.... where would she stand? Where would she sit? What would she do downstairs?
A. She was always next to the stove. She would say she was freezing.
Q. Would she fall asleep near the stove?
A. Yes.
Q. What would her mother do when she saw her next to the stove?
A. She.....would pass next to her. When she had something in her hands, she would hit her with it.
Q. Now, did you sleep upstairs with your little sister all winter?
A. Yes.
Q. Would she sometimes come upstairs at night?
A. Yes, Maman came upstairs every night.
Q. What would she come upstairs to do?
A. She came upstairs to beat her.
Q. Why would she beat her like that?
A. She didn't want.... At the time she didn't have a bed. She didn't want.... A pipe passed through the room. She didn't want her to go and be next to the pipe to warm herself up.
Q. So how would she beat her? What would she beat her with? Would she beat her hard or lightly?
A. She would beat her hard. She would make her bleed.
Q. Now, you told the Jurors you had already seen your mother tie up your little sister?
— 19 —A. Yes.
Q. Was that the only time? How many times did you see her tied up?
A. She tied her up three times.
Q. So where would she tie her?
A. She would tie her to the table.
Q. Would she also tie her any place else?
A. She would tie her upstairs during the night.
Q. Where?
A. To a wooden bed.
Q. How would she tie her up?
A. She would tie her feet to her hands.
Q. Her feet and her hands together?
A. Yes.
Q. What would she tie her up with?
A. With a rope.
Q. Was it the rope I showed you?
A. Yes.
BY THE COURT: How would she tie her feet to her hands?
BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:
Q. How would she tie her up? Show the Judge and the Jurors how she would tie her up?
A. She would tie her feet, then her hands. She would put them together. Then she would tie her to the cover [bed].
Q. Can you show us, here?
A. She was bent double.
CROSS-EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE J. N. FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. You were heard at the Coroner's inquest in Ste. Philomène de Fortierville?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were you examined by?
A. I don't know who it was.
Q. It was Doctor Jolicoeur?
— 20 —A. I don't know him.
Q. When you were heard, were you alone in the room?
A. No.
Q. Who was there?
A. There were jurors. There was also Madame Arcadius Lemay.
Q. Was your mother, the accused, there?
A. Yes.
Q. You took an oath that time?
A. Yes.
Q. You were asked if you had been aware that your mother had mistreated Aurore?
A. ....Yes.
Q. And you swore that you hadn't been?
A. It was because I was afraid.
Q. Afraid of what?
A. Because she had promised me a good thrashing if I talked about what she had done.
Q. She had promised you a thrashing?
A. .....
Q. When did your mother promise you that thrashing?
A. She came upstairs before we left. That's when she said that.
Q. And so, under oath, you said the opposite of what you are recounting today for fear of the thrashing?
A. Yes.
Q. And what you are recounting today -- what you have just recounted -- you denied under oath in Ste. Philomène?
A. ....
Q. Did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what an oath is?
A. Yes.
Q. What is it?
A. An oath is taking God as a witness that what is said is true.
— 21 —Q. And in Ste. Philomène, you took God as witness of the truth of what you were saying? You swore falsely?
A. ....( The witness is crying ).
Q. Say yes or no?
BY THE COURT: I believe she has admitted it to you.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. Was it in Ste. Philomène that you swore falsely, or today, again under oath, that you are speaking falsely?
A. It was in Ste. Philomène.
Q. After your mother -- who is here in prison -- and your father were arrested, you said that what you had said before the Coroner was true?
A. I never spoke about that.
Q. You have never spoken about that?
A. ....
Q. Is it not true that you told me that it was false (true)?
A. ....
Q. Is it not true that downstairs here in the Police Court -- your mother was in prison -- you said that what you had said before the Coroner was true?
A. I don't remember.
Q. That your mother had never mistreated your little sister?
A. ...
Q. You don't remember?
A. .....
Q. Downstairs here in the Police Court, before the preliminary inquiry into your father's case? You don't remember?
A. No.
Q. Isn't it true that you said so to others as well? Your mother was in prison. She couldn't give you a thrashing.
A. I didn't tell anyone else.
Q. No one else. You didn't tell me?
A. .....
— 22 —Q. When did your mother beat you?
A. She beat me this winter.
Q. When?
A. I...I don't remember when it was that she beat me.
Q. You don't remember. Was it in January?
A. ....I don't remember in which month.
Q. Is it not true that you have previously declared, even under oath, that your mother had disciplined you only once, when you came out of the Youville Hospice, and that since then she had been treating you well?
A. ....I don't exactly remember having said so.
Q. As a question of fact, is it not true that your mother disciplined you once or twice within the space of two years -- the last two years -- and that she had always treated you well and that you said so to everyone who spoke to you about her?
A. I said so to everyone.... It's because we were afraid of being beaten.
Q. Oh, because you were afraid of being beaten?
A. ......
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that your mother has not disciplined you in two years?
A. Yes, she beat us.
Q. That she hadn't disciplined you because you were behaving yourself well?
A. .....
Q. When did she beat you?
A. (The witness is crying).
Q. Or if she did beat you, it was because you deserved it?
A. ....
Q. Is that not so?
BY THE COURT: Did she beat you because you had deserved it, Mademoiselle?
A. There were times when she would make us do chores.... When we took too long, she would beat us for nothing.
— 23 —BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. Did Detective Couture speak to you about the story or the testimony you rendered a short while ago?
A. I’m the one who told him.
Q. You’re the one who told him. Did he make you put it down in writing?
A. ...Him? Make me put it down in writing?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did anyone make you put it down in writing?
A. No one.
Q. Did you put it down in writing?
A. Yes, I’m the one who put it [down in writing].
Q. At no one’s request?
A. No.
Q. Marie-Jeanne, you have never liked your stepmother, the accused?
A. .....
BY THE COURT: Speak without fear. If you don’t like her, say so.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. You are still under oath, you know. You have never liked your stepmother, have you?
A. ....
Q. Have you ever beaten her yourself?
A. I have never beaten her.
Q. Is it not true that you have already beaten her? Think back, go over your memories?
A. No, she’s the one, rather, who would beat us.
Q. Is it not true that shortly before she married your father, you shoved her on the steps, you threw her down the steps?
A. I never did that.
Q. You never did that?
A. .....
Q. You never beat your little sister yourself?
— 24 —X. Aurore?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. ....
Q. You never quarrelled with her?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times?
A. I didn’t count.
Q. It is not true that you were always quarrelling with her? That you beat her yourself?
A. No, I never beat her and I wasn’t always quarrelling with her.
Q. And that you were jealous of each other?
A. That just isn’t true. She’s the one who said that.
Q. She’s the one who said that?
BY THE COURT: Who is 'she'?
A. Maman.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. You said that last August your mother had beaten your little sister on her feet with a piece of wood? Did it leave a wound? Did it bleed?
A. Her feet swelled up. Two days later the skin fell off.
Q. Was that the same day that Aurore went to look for the little boys?
A. No, it was the day after.
Q. Was it a Saturday?
A. I don’t remember what day it was.
Q. And when Aurore returned, she was hurt?
A. Her foot was the same as when she had left.
Q. What did she say?
A. She said the Bédard boy and her Uncle Alfred’s little boy were the ones who had done that.
Q. Who had done that?
A. It’s because she was afraid of getting beaten.
Q. Did she tell you she was afraid of getting
— 25 —beaten?
A. Yes, she said so.
Q. She told you so?
A. She didn’t tell me, but I’m the one who.....I thought that.
Q. Aurore didn't tell you that, but you thought that? Is that not so?
A. I know very well they weren’t the ones who did that to her because she made it there.
Q. Did you go with her?
A. No, I didn’t go.
Q. How do you know she made it there if you didn’t go with her?
A. I saw her.
Q. You saw her?
A. ....
Q. You didn’t go with her?
A. No.
Q. When did your mother call the doctor?
A. She called him on Sunday.
Q. Isn’t that the day after Aurore went to look for the little boys?
A. I don’t remember if it was the day after.
Q. But it was on Sunday that she called him.
A. Yes.
Q. Did Aurore stay in bed or did, well, did she continue sleeping upstairs?
A. She continued sleeping upstairs all the same.
Q. When the doctor came, was she not downstairs?
A. Yes, the doctor put her to bed. She put her downstairs.
Q. She put her downstairs. She slept downstairs while she was sick, didn’t she?
A. Yes.
Q. Your mother tended to her well while she was sick?
A. She tended to her.... Not as often as the doctor had told her.
— 26 —Q. What was it that the doctor had told her?
A. He had told her to apply damp dressings.
Q. And?
A. She didn’t always apply them.
Q. She didn’t always apply them. How many did she apply per day?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Did you apply dressings yourself?
A. No.
Q. Not at all?
A. ....
Q. How long did she stay in bed?
A. I don’t know how long she stayed [in bed].
Q. Do you remember that while she was in bed, your Uncle Zoel Marcotte and your aunt went to see you?
A. No, I don’t remember.
Q. Did the doctor go there several times?
A. Yes, he came several times.
Q. While Aurore was at the Hôtel Dieu [hospital]....
BY THE COURT: When was it that the doctor went there several times?
A. While she was in bed.
Q. Yes, but was that when she died or....?
A. No, when she had a sore foot.
Q. Before she went to the Hôtel Dieu?
A. Yes.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. When Aurore went to the Hôtel Dieu, did she write your mother, as far as you know?
A. Yes, she wrote once.
Q. Is it not true that she wrote three times?
A. I don’t remember her having written three times.
Q. That letter Aurore wrote to your mother.... Is it at home?
A. No, I sent it here.
Q. You sent it here? To whom?
— 27 —A. You’re the one I sent it to.
Q. Me?
A. Yes.
Q. No?
A. Because Madame Zoel Marcotte came to get the letter. You sent a letter yourself, asking for letters.
Q. Yes. Aside from that, there is another letter. Did you not give another letter from Aurore to Madame Arius Mailhot?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. A letter written by Aurore herself?
A. .... I don’t remember.
Q. Were you the one who took those letters from the house?
A. No. The one I gave to Madame Zoel Marcotte.... I’m the one who took it.
Q. You’re the one who took it?
A. .....
Q. Were there not any other letters?
A. I didn’t find any other letter from her.
Q. After your parents were arrested, you came back by train, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. And Detective Couture was there, was he not?
A. When I came back.... I’m not sure whether he was with us when I came back.
Q. But when you came to Quebec City after the arrest, Detective Couture was there?
A. I’m not sure.
Q. Is it not true that he tried to make you talk on the train?
A. No. He didn’t speak to me. He didn’t try to make me talk on the train.
Q. How can you say that? He wasn’t there?
A. I don’t know if he was there.
— 28 —Q. Do you remember that you told me he had tried to make you talk?
A. That wasn’t when we came back.
Q. When was it?
A. That was when we returned for the first time on the Saturday.
Q . Now then, didn't I ever tell you anything about that?
A. I don’t remember if you told me anything.
Q. Is it not true that I told you not to speak about your testimony to anyone, but only here in Court?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. You don’t remember that?
A. ......
Q. You say that you used to sleep upstairs with Aurore?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you sleep in the same bed?
A. No.
Q. You never slept in the same bed?
A. No.
Q. Do you swear it?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a double bed in that room?
A. Yes.
Q. And you swear, Marie-Jeanne, that you never slept with Aurore in the same bed?
A. Yes,...no...yes.
Q. Never?
A. ....
Q. Are you saying never?
A. ....
Q. Why are you crying. You were under oath a little while ago and you answered the other lawyer without faltering and without crying?
A. Because I’m tired.
Q. You’re tired?
A. ......
— 28 — [sic]Q. Answer my question. Do you swear, Marie-Jeanne, that you never slept with your little sister Aurore?
A. I don’t remember exactly.
Q. Is it not true that you used to sleep together upstairs in a double bed and that your mother prevented you from sleeping together for reasons you are aware of?....
A. That’s just not true.
Q. Wait until I ask the question before saying it’s not true. Is it not true that you and your little sister used to have fun together -- you would do impure acts -- and that was why your mother wanted to prevent you from sleeping together?
A. That’s all lies.
Q. Is it not true that Aurore told your mother so in front of you.
A. No, she didn’t say that.
Q. And in front of your father?
A. She didn’t talk about that.
Q. What is it that she said?
A. She didn’t talk.
Q. Do you swear it?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that eight days before her death, Aurore told your mother and father all about....?
A. No.
Q. What had happened during mass, while they were gone?
A. She never said anything like that.
Q. She never said anything like that. Do you swear it?
A. Yes.
Q. And you never did anything like that with Aurore, Marie-Jeanne?
A. (The witness is crying)
BY THE COURT: Maître Francoeur is asking whether you ever did impure acts with Aurore?
A. No.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
— 29 —Q. Do you swear it?
A. ......
Q. With little Gérard?
A. No.
Q. Is it not true that Aurore told your mother and father, in front of you, that one Sunday you both removed all your clothes during mass?
A. That’s just not true.
Q. Aurore never said that?
A. No.
Q. It isn’t true?
A. I know full well that it isn’t true.
Q. Your mother made that up?
A. Yes, Maman made that up.
Q. And your father as well?
A. Papa didn’t talk about that.
Q. He wasn’t the one who talked. Aurore was the one who told your mother and father after High Mass?
A. ......
Q. Is that not true?
A. ......
Q. Is it not?
BY THE COURT: The witness has answered.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. Your father and your mother made that up? Is that what you’re saying?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that that very Sunday you wanted to make use of the little eight-month-old baby you were looking after?
A. .....
Q. That you wanted to give the little baby your breast?
A. That’s all lies.
Q. That’s all lies? And Aurore didn’t tell your father and mother that back at home?
A. No, she never spoke about that.
Q. Is it not true that when your mother rebuked you
— 30 —for that, you replied that you knew a lot? That you had learned that during the two years you had spent at the Youville Hospice?
A. I never said that.
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that you took your little sister Aurore once and tied her up?
A. That.....
Q. That you blindfolded her and that you wanted to use a bottle on her?
A. I never did that.
Q. And that Gérard was there as well?
A. ....
Q. Do you swear it?
A. Yes.
Q. Your father and your mother are the ones who made that up?
A. ....
Q. Would you please answer my question?
A. I’m tired.
Q. Your father and your mother made that all up?
A. ....
Q. That never happened?
A. ....
BY THE COURT: Sit down for a moment, Mademoiselle.
( At 12:25 p.m., the Court adjourns [until] 2:00 p.m.,
At 2:10 p.m., the witness enters the witness box).
BY THE COURT: I will speak as a father speaks to his child. You don’t need to be afraid of anything. No one will hurt you. The Judge will protect you. You don’t need to be afraid or to cry like that. Maître Francoeur has the right to ask these questions. It’s his duty to ask them. I understand that it’s painful. He has to carry out his duty. My child, this is all a combination of unhappy circumstances. You don’t need to cry. Speak slowly and no one will hurt you. I guarantee you that.
(The letter of which it was question this morning is produced as Exhibit P 15)
— 31 —Maître Francoeur, K.C., on behalf of the accused, objects to the production of the letter given that it was allegedly addressed by the accused to her father-in-law, Gédéon Gagnon, and that the latter has not been heard to testify that he had received the letter and to establish that it was indeed a letter from the accused.
Q. You don’t need to cry, Marie-Jeanne. I'm not [here] to ask pointless questions. I am obliged to ask these questions. I never mistreated you when you came to my office. I would like to ask a question that I asked this morning: whether you persist in swearing that you never slept with your little sister Aurore after you got back from the Youville Hospice and were living with your father?
A. That I can’t say.
BY THE COURT: Don’t cry. Answer like a brave girl. It will all be over very soon.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. Do you remember when you came from the Youville Hospice during the holidays?
A. No, I don’t remember.
Q. To your grandfather’s?
A. No.-
Q. Three (3) years ago?
A. No, I don’t remember.
Q. At the time the accused, your stepmother, wasn’t married to your father?
A. ...I don’t remember.
Q. You don’t remember that?
A. I don’t remember when I came to spend my holidays.
Q. You don’t remember that you both used to sleep downstairs -- Aurore...?
A. Yes...
Q. And you?
A. Aurore never came to spend her holidays....
Q. So, you remember that Aurore.... So you remember then that you were the only one who went to spend your
— 32 —holidays at...?
A. Yes, but I don’t remember.
Q. You don’t remember. Maybe if Aurore didn’t go, you didn’t go either?
A. ....Because I know she... was in the convent for only two years.
Q. Only two years in the convent. At the same time as you?
A. Yes.
Q. And during the holidays you don’t remember having gone [to] your grandfather’s in Fortierville?
A. No.
Q. Three years ago?
A. ....
Q. You said your mother would go up into the bedroom at night to beat Aurore, didn’t you?
A. Yes.
Q. She would go up every evening?
A. She would go up every night.
Q. She would go up every night. When did that start?
A. Oh, I can’t say when.
Q. How many months had it been?
A. I can’t say how many months.
Q. At what hour of the night?
A. I don’t know.
Q. So she beat her..?
A. Yes.
Q. Every night?
A. ..
Q. So when she went upstairs, were you awake?
A. I would wake up when she would scream.
Q. Would the other children wake up as well?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Gérard slept upstairs?
A. He slept upstairs..in another room.
Q. Not in the...in the same room?
A. No.
— 33 —Q. The next room over?
A. Yes.
Q. What would she beat her with?
A. She would beat her with pieces of wood.
Q. With pieces of wood. Would she light the lamp?
A. Yes, she always had a small lamp.
Q. Pardon?
A. Yes, she always had a small lamp.
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that your mother went up into the room once to go and get Aurore, who was sleeping with her little brother, one night?
A. No, she went up once, and the other times she also went up.
Q. You admit that she went up once because Aurore had gone to sleep with her little brother?
A. Yes. She went up that time because she was freezing on the floor. She went there to sleep.
Q. What month was that?
A. Oh, I don’t know what month.
Q. Was it in the summer or in the winter?
A. Oh, it was winter.
BY THE COURT: We had you sit down so that you could speak up a little louder.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. You said that your mother didn’t want to give Aurore the chamber pot and, if I remember correctly, that was a month before she died?
A. Yes.
Q. Before then, she would give it to her?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that for over a year and a half Aurore had been peeing like that ,everywhere?
A. She would pee like that everywhere when she would take the chamber pot away from her, that’s all.
Q. You just said that it was a month before she died that she took it away from her?
— 34 —Q. She would also sometimes take it away from her from time to time.
A. Was this at night or during the day?
A. At night... at night and during the day.
Q. All the time?
A. ....
Q. Was there a chamber pot in your room upstairs?
A. There wasn’t one there. She hid it.
Q. Was there a pail?
A. There wasn’t one.
Q. There wasn’t a pail or a chamber pot?
A. .....
Q. Is it not true that Aurore would pee on the floor like that in broad daylight without asking for the chamber pot or anything, even when there was someone there?
A. I wasn’t aware she went on the floor when someone was there?
Q. You weren’t aware she went on the floor when someone was there?
A. No.
Q. You weren’t aware of it? You weren’t present?
A. I wasn’t aware of it.
Q. You don’t remember once when Odilon Auger was there? It was while you were eating dinner. Aurore was rocking the little baby and she went on the floor, just like that, in front of everyone.
A. No, I don’t remember that.
Q. You don’t remember that? You weren’t there?
A. I don’t remember. I don’t know if I was there.
Q. Did you ever put ointment on Aurore? On her wounds?
A. Just last summer Papa made me put some on once.
Q. When?
A. Last summer.
Q. Last summer. Where?
A. On her sores. Because she had sores.
Q. On her sores. Where?
A. ....On her arms and on her legs.
— 35 —Q. On her arms and on her legs. What sores were these?
A. Well, it was when she had been hit and it had bled. It had made scabs.
Q. Who had dealt those blows?
A. It was Papa that time.
Q. Last summer it was your father?
A. And Maman beat her last summer as well.
Q. Did she have ointments put on after that?
A. I don’t remember if she made me put some on after that.
Q. Is it not true that she had pimples, humours, and that your mother would tend to her, would put on ointments, and that when she didn’t have the time, you were the one who would put them on?
A. No, I never put any on myself.
Q. You never put any on yourself?
A. No.
Q. You just said that you put some on last summer?
A. Yes, but I didn’t put any on this winter. I don’t remember having put any on?
A. Not during the winter? Do you swear it?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Would Aurore scratch herself?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. Is it not true that she would scratch at these pimples and that she would wipe her fingers on the partition in her room?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. You don’t remember that?
A. She didn’t even have any pimples.
Q. She didn’t even have any pimples? She didn’t have any scabs?
A. I didn’t see any. She had scabs.
Q. She wouldn’t scratch at those scabs?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. Is it not true that she would scratch at those scabs? That she would wipe her fingers on the partition or on the floor?
A. I don’t remember that.
— 36 —Q. Didn't you burn her -- Aurore -- with the poker?
A. I never burned Aurore.
Q. Never?
A. No.
Q. Think back, search your memories a bit.
A. I can remember my memories. I know I never burned her.
Q. Is it not true that once when your mother had gone to the barn....
A. When Maman had gone to the barn?
Q. Wait until I ask the question. You were heating up the stove and Aurore quarrelled with you and you meant to burn her? She grabbed the poker, which was hot, and she burned her hands?
A. She.... She burned herself?
Q. Yes?
A. Maman -- she’s the one who would do that. She would make her grab hold of the poker. She would say, “Just look! She wanted to take the poker away."
Q. You mother was the one who would say that? It wasn’t you?
A. I didn’t do that. I didn’t burn her.
Q. You forgot to say that? That your mother would make her grab hold of the poker?
A. ....
Q. So your mother would offer her the poker and Aurore would take it?
A. Aurore would push it away with her hands so that it wouldn't burn her.
Q. Is it not true that you were the one who did that while your mother was at the barn? And that Aurore told your mother about it when she came back?
A. She never told her about it because it was her. I saw her do it herself.
Q. Not you?
A. No, I didn’t do it.
— 37 —Q. That’s not true?
A. ....
Q. When your mother used to burn Aurore like that, she would heat the poker up red red hot?
A. Yes, she would heat it up red hot.
Q. White-hot or just red?
A. It was red.
Q. While you, meanwhile, would be watching out the window?
A. She would make us look out from there.
Q. How could you see whether the poker was red if you were looking out the window?
A. Not while she was heating it up. I would look out while she was burning her.
Q. You weren’t looking out the window then?
A. ....
Q. You would watch out the window when she was heating it up?
A. When she was burning her.
Q. When she was heating it up, you would look out the window?
A. I’m saying that when she was burning her, I would watch out the window, and when she was heating it up, we didn’t need to look out.
Q. Did you see the poker red?
A. Yes, I saw the poker red.
Q. How much of it was red? She had to heat up this end (indicating)?
A. Yes.
Q. How much of it was red?
A. It was red up to there -- that much (The witness indicates about eight to nine inches of length).
Q. How would your mother hold the poker? By the end?
A. She would hold it by the end?
Q. By the end of the handle or by the middle?
A. She would hold it by the end of the handle.
Q. Did she use just one hand or both hands?
A. Both hands.
— 38 —Q. Would she press it down hard upon Aurore?
A. She would press it down enough for it to burn her skin.
Q. On her skin?
A. That.... The skin had come off.
Q. Oh, the skin would come off?
A. .....
Q. So each time she would place the poker on her, her skin would come off?
A. I can’t say whether her skin would come off all the time, but anyway I saw it enough times to say so.
Q. How many times.
A. I didn’t count them.
Q. Was it five times? Six times?
A. I didn’t count them.
Q. But how often? Every day?
A. She burned her that way only three times.
Q. She burned her that way only three times? So you counted them then?
A. Yes, but I didn’t count.... when the skin came off.
Q. When did the skin come off? No, that’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking how many times your mother burned her with the poker?
A. She burned her three times.
Q. When was the last time?
A. The last time.... I don’t remember when she burned her the last time.
Q. A little while ago, you said it was shortly before she died?
A. Yes, I said that the first time was in January.
Q. The last time?
A. The last time.... I don’t remember.
Q. The second time?
A. The second time, you see.... Anyway, I know that the first time was in January, and I can’t say for the other time.
Q. Was this long after the first time?
— 39 —A. Oh, I don’t remember.
Q. Three days? Four days?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. It didn’t strike you?
A. ..... What didn’t strike me?
A. It didn’t strike you the second time? Only the first? You remember the first time -- you say it was in January -- and you don’t remember the second and third times?
Q. I didn’t notice... what day [it was] and the date...
Q. No, but I’m asking you whether the last time she burned her was in February?
A. ....I think she burned her in February and the second time.... I don’t know.
Q. Was the second time before February?
A. The second time.... I don’t know.
Q. Where did she burn her the first time?
BY THE COURT: On what part of her body?
A. She burned her all over.
BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:
Q. She burned her all over? Where?
A. On her legs, on her feet, on the soles of her feet.
Q. On her knees?
A. On her knees.... She just burned her behind her knees.
Q. Just behind her knees? On her thighs?
A. Yes.
Q. Pardon?
A. Yes, she burned her there.
Q. On her bottom?
A. She burned her all over.
Q. She burned her all over? On her shoulders?
A. On her shoulders.... I can’t say if she burned her there.
Q. And on her arms?
A. On her arms.... Anyway I know she burned her on her fingers.
— 40 —Q. On her fingers. And aside from that? She burned her elsewhere....?
A. Oh, well, I don’t know.
Q. Did she burn her on her face?
A. Not on her face.
Q. Where did she burn her the second time?
A. The second time.... I don’t know. I don’t remember.
Q. And the third time?
A. The third time.... Oh, well..... I didn’t notice where she burned her. She had burned her quite enough the first time.
Q. She had burned her quite enough the first time and it didn't interest you anymore the other times?
A. I don’t remember the dates of each time.
Q. No, it’s not that. I’m asking you where she burned her the third time. You say you remember it was in February?
A. Yes.
Q. I’m asking you where she burned her with the poker?
A. She burned her where I told you.
Q. Where?
A. I just told you where -- just a little while ago.
Q. The same place? All over?
A. Oh, I don’t know if she burned her all over everywhere. But anyway she had had enough. She died. She had had quite enough...
Q. But did you see her burn her the third time?
A. Yes, I saw her burn her the third time.
Q. Where did she burn her with the poker?
A. I told you. There, on her feet.
Q. She tried her feet again, and then on her legs?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she burn her on her feet? On the soles of her feet?
A. Yes, she really burned her badly on her feet.
Q. She burned her badly on her feet?
A. I don’t know if that was the third time, however.
Q. She also burned her on her wrists?
— 41 —A. On her wrists?
Q. Around her hands?
A. On the back of her hand and on her fingers at any rate.
Q. And on her fingers.... She didn’t burn her on her arms?
A. On her arms.... I didn’t notice.
Q. Did she also burn her on her thighs the third time?
A. That’s what I said. The third time.
Q. On her thighs?
A. Yes.
Q. On her bottom as well?
A. I'm talking to you about the third time.... The second time...
Q. She didn’t burn her?
A. I can’t say where she burned her. She burned her because she was screaming.
Q. Because she was screaming.... But you didn’t see her?
A. I saw her burn her.
Q. Where was she burning her?
A. I didn’t really notice where she had burned her.
Q. But you must have seen that? That was important?
A. Of course.
Q. You don’t remember where she burned her the second time? Only the first and the third times?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say the third time was in February?
A. Yes.
Q. How many days before she died?
A. Oh, well.....
Q. Two days before she died?
A. Not two days before she died.
Q. Three days?
A. Well.... I can’t say how many days before she died.
Q. She died February twelfth (12) and you say she burned her for the third time in February? How many
— 42 —days before February twelfth (12)? Was it during the first days of February?
A. I don’t remember if it was during the first days or the last.
Q. Or the last days before her death? You don’t remember at all?
A. Yes... No, I don’t remember.
Q. And so each time the poker was red?
A. Yes, the poker was red.
Q. You could smell roasted skin in the house?
A. You could smell burnt skin.
Q. Was your father there when your mother was doing that?
A. No, he was working in the woods. He was never there.
Q. He was never there? When he came home in the evening?
A. He didn’t know.
Q. You didn't tell him?
A. No.
Q. Why?
A. Because we were afraid.
Q. What were you afraid of?
A. Of being beaten.
Q. By whom? By your father?
A. By Maman.
Q. You aren’t afraid of your father?
A. Maman forbade us to tell.
Q. Pardon?
A. Maman forbade us to tell.
Q. Your mother forbade you to tell?
A. .....
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that everything that happened at home -- your squabbles with Aurore, everything that was happening with Gérard, Georges-Henri and Georges -- that as soon as your father came in in the evening, you would tell him everything?
A. I never talked to Papa about that. When Papa came in.... We never told Papa.
Q. You never told your father? Can you swear it? Your father
— 43 —was never told about it when he came home?
A. I never told him what was happening.... That Maman mistreated us. I never told Papa that.
Q. Did Aurore ever say what was happening?
A. She never told Papa that Maman was mistreating her.
Q. She never told your mother [sic] that your mother was mistreating her? And if your father were to swear that, he would be lying?
A. What do you mean?
Q. That you would tell him everything when he arrived from the woods or elsewhere? If your father were to swear that you would tell him everything, he would be lying?
A. If you’re asking me, anyway, I never heard her tell him that she was mistreated. If she told him, she told him secretly. I don’t know.
Q. You swear that you yourself never told him?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. No, I never told Papa I was mistreated.
Q. Did your father and your mother.... Did they ever reprimand you for your behaviour?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Did your father and your mother never lecture you about the way you were behaving with Aurore and little Gérard?
A. I don’t remember that.
Q. When they would send you to confession, Marie-Jeanne, would they not tell you to be careful to confess fully, to tell about the bad things you were doing?
A. They didn’t ever say that.
Q. They didn’t ever say that. Your father never told you that, nor your mother?
A. Papa was never there.
Q. Your father was never there?
A. He was never there during the day. He was never there this winter.
Q. You would go to church with him? To confession?
— 44 —A. We never went with him.
Q. You never went with him? Your mother was the one you would go with?
A. She went with us only once. After that, we would go alone.
Q. After that, you would go alone. And before you left, would your father not reprimand you?
A. Not before we left.
Q. Would he do so when you arrived home?
A. He would never reprimand us when we arrived home.
Q. Never?
A. When we arrived home?
Q. Your father never reprimanded you, Marie-Jeanne?
A. I don’t remember if he did.
Q. You're too good of a little girl for that?
A. ....
Q. You told Monsieur Fitzpatrick that Aurore had fallen against the stove door?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That was in January.
Q. Were you there yourself?
A. When she fell down, yes.
Q. Your father and your mother weren’t there?
A. No, they weren’t there.
Q. Where had they gone?
A. They had gone to my Uncle Anthyme’s. They had gone to keep vigil beside the body.
Q. They had gone to keep vigil beside the body of your uncle, Anthyme Gagnon?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was while your father and mother were absent that Aurore fell against the stove door?
A. Yes.
Q. She hurt her eye?
— 45 —A. Yes.
Q. Which eye?
A. It was her left eye.
Q. Did her eye swell up?
A. When she fell she cried out, “Ow”. Then she stayed there. When Maman arrived, her eye was swollen up. It was black.
Q. When did your father and mother arrive?
A. They arrived at around midnight.
Q. I beg your pardon?
A. Around midnight.
Q. And when your father and mother arrived, her eye was swollen and black?
A. Yes.
Q. That was her right eye?
A. Her left eye.
Q. Because she had fallen against the stove door?
A. Yes, and the other.... I can’t say....
Q. Wait for the other. We'll get to that. You’ll get to tell us about that. Did your mother apply dressings to Aurore’s eye?
A. She put bread boiled in milk on it. Her eye healed.
Q. She made a dressing of bread boiled in milk?
A. Yes.
Q. And the swelling on her eye went down?
A. She didn’t have just one. Both her...
Q. She had two black eyes. So, in falling against the stove, she gave herself two black eyes?
A. She just had one but the other.... I don’t know who gave it to her. At any rate, she got up in the morning with two black eyes.
Q. That was the next day?
A. The next morning. In the evening she had just one black eye -- her left eye -- and the next morning she got up with two black eyes.
Q. That happened during the night? Just her left
— 46 —eye was black, and in the morning her right eye was as well?
A. She had two black eyes in the morning.
Q. And it was in the morning that your mother made the boiled bread dressings?
A. No, she had had her black eyes for a while. My Aunt Rose-Anna came, and she was the one who told her that.
Q. Was it the next day that your Aunt Rose-Anna came?
A. She came... No, it wasn’t the next day. That was when he was buried and during that time.... I made a mistake a little while ago. She was very sick, ..they had gone....to keep vigil at his bedside and then after that he died.
Q. He died?
A. She came.... It was after the service that she came.
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that it was the next day, when your mother....when your mother noticed her eye was swollen, that she made dressings of bread boiled in milk?
A. No. She didn’t put any on right the next day. She didn’t do anything about them for three days, I believe. Then my Aunt Rose-Anna came. That evening she put bread boiled in milk on them.
Q. It healed?
A. Yes.
Q. Right away?
A. It took time.
Q. How many days?
A. I didn’t count the days.
Q. This strap, this leather band that you call a strap?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that your mother gagged your little sister with it?
A. Yes.
Q. How many times?
— 47 —A. Once.
Q. When?
A. She burned her with the poker that time.
Q. Was that the first time or the third?
A. I don’t remember which time.
Q. That leather strap was in the house?
A. Yes, it was in the house.
Q. Was it a harness for the horses?
A. No.
Q. Do you children play with it?
A. No. Papa was the one who would take it with him when he would go hunting.
Q. And you say your mother put it over Aurore’s mouth?
A. Yes.
Q. You don’t know which time?
A. I don’t know which time. At any rate she put it on her. I know she put it on when she burned her with the poker. She put it on.
Q. You pointed out switches. A white switch. You say your mother allegedly beat her with that switch?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that switch inside the house, or....
A. She.....
Q. Wait until I ask the question. You're talking too fast and a while ago you weren’t talking at all. Would your mother go get that switch from outside, or was that switch inside the house?
A. That switch had been in the kitchen for a long time.
Q. You would play with the little children and you would have switches like that?
A. We didn’t have any switches. That switch was still there when... at the Coroner’s inquest. It was at the foot of the stairs.
Q. Is it not true that your little brothers and Aurore used to play
— 48 —horse inside the house and that they always had switches they would bring in?
A. They weren’t switches. What they had were small rope whips.
Q. You swear that neither Gérard nor the others, nor Aurore, ever brought switches into the house to play with?
A. If they brought any in, it wasn’t that one.
Q. I’m not asking you if it was not that one. I’m asking if they brought in other ones?
A. I can’t say if they brought switches into the house.
Q. Is it not true that there were some upstairs -- in Aurore’s room upstairs -- where you would go, not only to play, but also to play dolls with each other?
A. Yes, but I don’t remember myself whether they brought any into the house.
Q. But they would play upstairs in Aurore’s room?
A. They didn’t play often because Maman would send them...
Q. I’m not asking whether they would play often. I’m asking if they would play?
A. They played just a few times.
Q. You don’t remember exactly how many. How many times did you play in Aurore’s room?
A. The little boys played a few times but I don’t remember for myself.
Q. Do you remember leaving the house and going off into the woods?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. How many times did you leave like that?
A. Oh, I didn’t count the times.
Q. Did you go there several times?
A. .....I didn’t count the times.
Q. Do you remember one time when you went there, when you left at ten o’clock in the morning...?
A. Yes.
Q. And your father was the one who found you in the woods that evening?
— 49 —A. He didn’t find me in the woods. I’m the one who went off to the village myself to tell.... Maman had given me a thrashing, that's why I left.
Q. So you remember then?
A. That was the first time.
Q. When?
A. Oh, that I don’t know however. Anyway....
Q. Is it not true that the evening you left -- you were milking the cows and all of a sudden you left -- you ran away into the woods?
A. I never left in the evening.
Q. Or in the morning?
A. It wasn’t the morning. It was when Maman returned from Quebec City. She had promised me a good thrashing. I don’t remember why -- something she had told me to tidy up. I hadn’t had the time to tidy everything up. That morning she told me, "Just you wait and see. She’s going to get a good thrashing later."
Q. You left?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that when you returned home, when they went to get you -- strangers were there -- you said that you had left because you had seen all sorts of creatures in the barn?
A. That isn’t even true.
Q. It isn't even true?
A. ....
Q. That at one point you had seen all kinds of creatures, you had become frightened and you had left. When you arrived home, you said that to everyone who was present?
A. I never talked about that.
Q. And the third time your father had to go get you in the woods?
A. I don’t remember the woods.
Q. You don’t remember the woods?
A. ....
Q. And you only returned to your senses on Monday
— 50 —at home?
A. I returned.... I had all my senses about me when I left as well.
Q. So you had your senses about you all the time?
A. Of course.
Q. And so you're saying that you left because your mother promised to thrash you?
A. And the first time, she had beaten me as well.
Q. So you remember all that then?
A. I remember the first time.
Q. And you don’t remember the other times?
A. The other times.... I don’t remember other times. I know that when I came in once, she hit me on the forehead with a shoe.
Q. She hit you on the forehead with a shoe?
A. That’s right.
Q. When was that?
A. Oh, I don’t remember when that was.
Q. The day Aurore died, you say that your mother hit her with that axe handle.
A. Not an axe handle....
Q. A pitchfork handle?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was that pitchfork handle?
A. Oh, I don’t know where she got it from.
Q. Was that the first time you saw that pitchfork handle in the house?
A. That pitchfork handle.... No, it wasn’t the first time?
Q. But where was it in the house?
A. It wasn’t in the house. It was in the shed, with the wood.
Q. It was in the shed, with the wood?
A. ....
Q. Did your mother go get it the morning Aurore died?
A. Oh, I don’t know if it had been brought in beforehand.... That I don’t know.
— 51 —Q. Is it not true that the pitchfork handle was on the ground in front of the barn?
A. There wasn’t any pitchfork handle in front of the barn.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I know. I’m the one who saw her pick it up. She didn’t go get it in front of the barn.
Q. You saw her pick it up?
A. I didn’t see her pick it up. I did see her with it, however. She didn’t get it from the barn.
Q. Where did she get it from?
A. She got the pitchfork handle from the shed.
Q. She went out that morning to go get the pitchfork handle to beat Aurore?
A. I’m not saying she went to get it right away that morning, but she did beat Aurore.
Q. How can you swear that you know she was the one who went to get it from the shed?
A. I don’t know who went to get it, but I do know very well that she’s the one who beat her with it.
Q. A little while ago, you said that she was the one who went to get it from the shed?
A. I didn’t...I don’t think that was what I said a little while ago. If I said that it’s because....
Q. It was someone who brought it to the house?
A. I don’t know if it was someone or else her.
Q. Your stepmother is also someone?
A. Of course, but I thought you were asking if it was someone else.
Q. So you say she went upstairs in the morning to bring Aurore down? That she knocked her down the stairs?
A. I didn’t say that she knocked her down the stairs. I said that when she had reached the bottom of the stairs and arrived next to the stove, she fell down. She didn't waste any time.... She hit her hard on her back three times. She went to put it away. She went to put it away.
— 52 —Q. Did she give Aurore any breakfast that morning?
A. No, she didn’t have breakfast.
Q. You swear that she didn’t have breakfast?
A. She didn’t have breakfast. She didn’t want to.
Q. She didn’t want to eat?
A. She didn’t mention eating. Then after that she went to lie down. She asked if she were hungry? Aurore said, "No."
Q. Aurore said that she wasn’t hungry?
A. She didn’t want to eat. At the time she was wasn't even half conscious.
Q. But you said that your Maman had offered her food and Aurore had answered that she didn’t want any?
A. She said, "No." She was only making signs at that point.
Q. Was she making signs or was she saying no?
A. She was making signs.
Q. She indicated no?
A. Yes.
Q. So where did she hit her with the pitchfork handle?
A. On her back.
Q. Did she have on her dress?
A. Yes, she had on her dress.
Q. She had on her dress?
A.......
Q. She hit her on her back?
A. Yes.
Q. How many blows?
A. Three (3) blows.
Q. Three blows?
A. She may have hit her some more, but those blows I really noticed.
Q. You didn’t notice everything?
A. She may well have hit her some more.
Q. She may well have hit her some more?
A. Yes.
— 53 —Q. But you noticed only three (3) blows yourself.
A. Yes.
Q. Was there anyone else in the house at the time?
A. No, the little boys weren’t there.
Q. The little boys weren’t there. There was only Aurore, you and your mother, isn't that so?
A. Yes.
Q. Your father had left as well?
A. Yes, he had just left.
Q. Is it not true, Marie-Jeanne, that your mother went upstairs and that she told Aurore to get out of bed in order to clean her up because she had wet her bed as usual?
A. She told her to get out of bed. She said that she wasn't going to stay in bed all day. She came down. She told her to go down. After that she came down behind her. She didn’t touch her. Only when she arrived next to the stove, she fell down. She said these were just gestures. She hit her three times on her back.
Q. Did you hear your mother telling her to get up? That she was going to clean her up?
A. That I didn’t hear.
Q. You didn’t hear?
A. I didn’t hear talking when she was upstairs.
Q. You didn’t hear what your mother was saying when she was upstairs?
A. When she was upstairs -- downstairs -- before going up, she said, "Just you wait and see. That big cow is going to get up."
Q. You’re feeling better, you’re talking better now?
A. When you’re quite tired, you may well not talk.
Q. So now you’re rested?
A. Yes.
Q. After that, you say that fifteen days before she died your mother tore out Aurore’s hair with the curling iron?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that true?
A. Yes.
— 54 —Q. Were you alone with your mother and Aurore at that time?
A. I don’t remember if the others were there.
Q. You don’t remember?
A. ....
Q. Did Aurore have long hair?
A. It was long enough for........for her to wrap it around....
Q. That’s not what I’m asking you. I’m asking whether she had long hair -- we’ll come back [to that] shortly....?
A. It wasn’t very very long.
Q. Pardon?
A. It wasn’t very, very long.
Q. Approximately how long? An inch?
A. I can’t say how long. I know....
Q. Was it cut short like the little boys?
A. Yes.
Q. Short? Like the little boys?
A. Not really short.... Short but it had started to grow out in back.
Q. It had started to grow out in back. So she would arrange it for her with the curling iron?
A. Yes.
Q. Did she heat it up beforehand?
Q. If her hair was so short, she couldn’t tear out a lot of hair?
A. It was long enough to wrap around the curling iron twice.
Q. Did she tear out a lot of it?
A. The patch on the back of her head, where the hair had been torn out.
Q. She had a patch on the back of her head where the hair had been torn out?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it visible after she died?
A. Yes, it was visible after she died.
Q. It was visible?
A. It was just as visible as....
Q. As...?
— 55 —A. It was as visible as when she wasn’t dead.
Q. And how big was that patch where the hair had been torn out?
A. I can’t say exactly how big it was.
Q. Was it visible to the naked eye?
A. Oh yes.
Q. By going very close to Aurore?
A. Oh yes, because it was.....I can’t say how big it was, but anyway it was big enough to see.
Q. It didn’t take a doctor to see it?
A. No.
Q. It was easy to see?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it on the back of her head?
A. I know it was on the back of her head although I don’t know where....
Q. Just on the back of her head?
A. ....
Q. Show the Jurors with your hands, will you, about where it was on your own head?
A. I don’t remember exactly. I know it was on the back of her head but I don’t remember exactly.
Q. Where on the back of her head? Near her neck or higher?
A. I don’t remember exactly where it was on the back [of her head].
Q. Was it really on the back of her head?
A. ......
Q. That’s very important. If you saw your mother tear out your little sister’s hair and you say that you saw it with your naked eyes -- which the doctor didn’t see after having examined her carefully -- you saw it with your naked eyes...you must know where it was?
A. But I don’t remember exactly.
Q. But you persist in swearing that there was a patch on her head where the hair had been torn out?
A. Yes.
— 56 —Q. And your mother was the one who tore it out with the curling iron?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was shortly before she died?
A. It was something like fifteen (15) days.
Q. It was something like fifteen days before she died?
A. ....
Q. It hadn’t grown back?
A. Anyway, I -- when... I saw it the morning she died. It hadn’t grown back yet and I saw it.
Q. It was very visible?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that spot bleeding?
A. No, that spot wasn’t bleeding.
Q. Was it swollen there?
A. I don’t know if it was swollen there. Anyway, I know that there was a small scab on it.
Q. A small scab on the back of her head?
A. Yes.
Q. You said that Aurore had a bed only two days before she died?
A. Yes.
Q. What type of bed did she have?
A. It’s the bed that’s here.
Q. Pardon?
A. It’s the bed that’s here in Court.
Q. That’s not a bed. That’s a mattress?
A. Yes, but there was a little bit of straw in it.
Q. After Aurore’s death, did you see her take off the sheets to have them cleaned?
A. No, I don’t remember again. I think...... The one she had.... She had nothing but a rag to cover herself with.
Q. The mattress was made out of sacks?
A. Yes.
Q. It’s not the only mattress you have in the house that is made out of sacks like that?
— 57 —A. No.
Q. Weren’t all the mattresses made like that?
A. I can’t say whether they were all made like that.
Q. Several of them were made like that?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Is your father and mother’s mattress not made like that?
A. I don’t know. I didn’t notice.
Q. Is yours made like that?
A. Yes.
Q. It’s made like that?
A. .....
Q. Those of your little brothers as well?
A. Theirs.... I don’t remember if it’s made like that.
Q. In the country many people make mattresses out of sacks like that?
A. I haven’t seen many made.
Q. Isn’t it true that that mattress comes from your grandfather who gave it to your father?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Your father and your grandfather were raised on that very mattress made in the same way?
A. ....I don’t know.
Q. Your own straw mattresses were made in the same way?
A. Yes, they were like that.
Q. You put straw inside?
A. Yes.
Q. The pillowcases were made in the same way?
A. Not all of them.
Q. Not all of them?
A. There were some with feathers.
Q. But there were some like that as well?
A. There weren’t many.....there were just two straw mattresses like that.
— 58 —Q. Which ones?
A. I can’t say [which was] the other one.
Q. Did it often happen that Aurore went in the house like that and that she would put it in your father’s clothes?
A. What I found out about once.... It was Maman that time. I wasn't aware of the other times. She did something in Papa’s clothes.
Q. You found out that your mother had put some in your father’s clothes?
A. In one.
Q. In one? In what?
A. In an overcoat.
Q. Your mother was the one who did that?
A. She had taken some filth. She had put it in the overcoat.
Q. She had put it in your father’s overcoat?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw your mother do that?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. That’s not.....I can’t say when it was.
Q. Was that this year?
A. Yes, it was this winter.
Q. In which month? January? February?
A. I don’t know which month. I can’t say. Anyway, it wasn’t very very long ago....
Q. Did Aurore do that herself?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. I know very well she wasn’t the one who did it that time.
Q. I’m not talking about that time. I’m talking about other times?
A. Other times, it wasn’t in Papa’s clothes.
Q. Whose clothes was it in?
A. It was in her own clothes.
Q. Is it not true that she went in her hat once and put it in your father’s clothes?
— 59 —A. That I didn’t see.
Q. You didn’t see that. Are you saying it’s not true?
A. I can’t say whether it’s true or whether it’s not true. I didn’t see that time.
And further deponent saith not.
[signature] M. J. Tremblay
Stenographer
I, the undersigned, sworn stenographer, certify that the foregoing is the faithful transcript of my shorthand notes, the whole in accordance with the law.
[signature] M. J. Tremblay
Official Stenographer
Source: ANQ, TP999, 1960-01-3623, 1B 014 01-04-004B-01, Cour du banc du roi, assises criminelles, district de Québec, Déposition de Marie-Jeanne Gagnon, procès de Marie-Anne Houde pour meurtre, April 15, 1920, 59.