C A N A D A
PROVINCE OF QUEBEC
DISTRICT OF QUEBEC

IN THE COURT OF KING'S BENCH

(CRIMINAL JURISDICTION)

PRESENT:
THE HONOURABLE JUSTICE L. P. PELLETIER

THE KING

V

MARIE-ANNE HOUDE, accused of murder

This fourteenth day of April, nineteen hundred and twenty, appeared Exilda Auger, wife of Arcadius Lemay, of the parish of Ste. Philomène, aged fifty years, witness produced by the Crown who, being sworn on the Holy Gospels, doth depose and say:

EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE ARTHUR FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. Madame Lemay, do you know the accused at the bar?

A. .....

Q. Do you know the accused?

A. Madame Télesphore Gagnon? Yes.

Q. You know her?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you live in Ste. Philomene de Fortierville?

A. Yes. Ste. Philomene de Fortierville.

Q. For how many years have you known her?

A. For four (4) years. Four years this winter -- last winter.

Q. For four years?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have occasion to speak to her over the past year?

A. Yes.

Q. How many children were in the Gagnon family?

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A. With her latest husband -- with Télesphore Gagnon -- she had a baby.

Q. A baby?

A. Yes.

Q. How many children did he have when he married her?

A. When he married her, she told me that she had four or five children [with] her first husband.

Q. Four or five children with her first husband?

A. Yes, I can't say. She wasn't in the parish at the time.

Q. And Télesphore Gagnon? How many children did he have when he married?

A. He had four children. I think he had four children as well.

Q. Four children as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember? Can you name them?

A. The eldest [was] Marie-Jeanne Gagnon. The next one [was] Aurore Gagnon.

Q. Aurore Gagnon. She's the one who died? The one who's dead?

A. Yes.

Q. And then?

A. Georges Etienne Gagnon.

Q. Georges Etienne Gagnon?

A. And then the little baby. I can't say.... The little baby.

Q. She had another little baby?

A. Another little baby.

Q. Another little baby? Is the little baby still alive?

A. No.

Q. He died?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you meet with Madame Gagnon quite often?

A. Yes. She came over from time to time to pay a visit.

Q. From time to time?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you seen her recently? Last summer?

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A. Yes.

Q. Would you mind recounting what conversation you had with her?

A. The conversation I had with her... I had been over once. She was telling me about her little children. The little girl came in crying.

Q. Which little girl?

A. Aurore Gagnon. She showed me an axe handle. He'd punished her that morning with the axe handle.

Q. Do you remember the month, approximately?

A. In August.

Q. Last summer?

A. Yes, in August.

Q. You're saying that she showed you an axe handle?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this axe handle....?

A. It was a big axe handle.

Q. A big axe handle?

A. Well, it wasn't dirty. It was white.

Q. Was it an axe handle similar to this piece of axe handle here?

A. Much longer than that.

Q. Much longer than that?

A. Yes, much longer than that.

Q. Was it about the same type? Was it bigger, smaller?

A. It was about that type, but much longer.

Q. Much longer?

A. Yes.

Q. In examining this axe handle, can you tell that it has been cut?

A. Yes, it was cut. But it was a longer axe handle than that. I don't know if it's the same one. It was longer than that.

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Q. It was longer than that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, was that the only conversation you had with her that day?

A. That day, yes.

Q. Now, when did you see her again?

A. Oh, I saw her several times after that -- several times. I saw her at different times.

Q. Did you talk about her child? Did she speak to you about her?

A. Yes, she spoke to me about her child.

Q. What would she say about her child?

Objection to the question as leading.

Q. You say that you saw her again later?

A. Yes. When she showed me the axe handle, I said that it wasn't a weapon to beat a child with.

Q. Did she say anything in response?

A. She answered, "The child wasn't even crying." I said, "That can't be so. A man spanks too hard to spank a child with a weapon like that." I said, "Place the child in a convent if you can't discipline her without using such strong weapons."

Objection to any evidence brought forward by the witness regarding a man's capacity to hit a child with an axe handle without having seen him do so.

Evidence allowed.

Q. Did you meet with her after that, Madame Lemay?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she have to say about that, Madame Lemay? About the remark you had made?

A. She said they couldn't afford to place all the children in a convent -- that it cost them too much.

Q. Now, did you see Madame Gagnon later?

A. Yes. I didn't witness the blows...

Q. What were the conversations about?

A. Well, they were about.... We spoke about various things. Each time it would

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always come back around -- she would come back -- it would always come back around to the child.

Q. What would she say?

A. She would say that the children were -- didn't listen. That they had to be severely punished.

Q. That was what your conversations with Madame Gagnon were about?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, have you been to her home?

A. Yes, I've been there.

Q. When did you go?

A. I went there, the last time, on the day the little girl died, and I had been there on February ninth.

Q. You had been there on February ninth?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the day she died?

A. She must have died on February twelfth (12th).

Q. So it was three days before she died?

A. Yes.

Q. So what was your reason for going there?

A. Well, because I was worried about the little girl.

Q. Because you were worried about the little girl?

A. Yes, I had....

Q. Where do you live? Do you live.... ?

A. Next to Madame Gagnon.

Q. Next to Madame Gagnon?

A. Yes.

Q. You say that you were worried about the little girl?

A. Yes.

Q. Had it been a long time since you had seen her?

A. I hadn't seen her all winter.

Q. You hadn't seen her all winter?

A. No.

Q. Was this a child that you were used to seeing before this winter, and last summer?

A. She came over to the house from time to time on errands.

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Q. Did she go outside?

A. No, she came on [errands]...

Q. In the past, before this winter -- last winter -- did she go outside before then, like the others?

A. Yes, she would go outside. She would come over to our home on errands, like the other children.

Q. You're saying that you didn't see her this winter?

A. No.

Q. You went over there on February ninth (9th)?

A. Yes.

Q. Whom did you meet in the house?

A. Madame Gagnon was there and her three children. The three children were there.

Q. Was Marie-Jeanne there?

A. Yes.

Q. Gérard?

A. Yes.

Q. Aside from them, who was there?

A. There were the other children -- Georges Etienne, the other little children. Her four children.

Q. Her four children were there?

A. Yes.

Q. The accused woman's?

A. .....

Q. Was the father there?

A. No, the accused man wasn't there. I didn't see him.

Q. The wife?

A. Yes, the wife was there.

Q. I'm talking to you about the wife?

A. Yes, she was there.

Q. You didn't see the husband?

A. No, the husband was out working.

Q. So would you mind telling us what happened when you went over to the house? Did anything happen?

A. I went to see the sick little girl. The little girl was upstairs. Our granddaughter....

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Q. What granddaughter?

A. My granddaughter. My brother's [son's] little girl. She had gone upstairs. The little girl -- my granddaughter -- was upstairs. My son's little girl was upstairs, you understand.... Two and a half years old....

Q. Two and a half years old?

A. Two and a half. She was upstairs and she said, "Wouldn't you like to see the little girl upstairs?"

Q. Who said that?

A. Madame Gagnon said, "My little girl is upstairs. My little girl has an awful lot of sores." Then she said, "I really don't like your granddaughter staying up there."

Q. What did you do at that point?

A. At that point I went to go get my granddaughter. I met Marie-Jeanne, who was coming down with my granddaughter in her arms.

Q. Marie-Jeanne.... That's Madame Gagnon's daughter?

A. Madame Gagnon's daughter. With my granddaughter.

Q. You met her? She was coming down....?

A. The stairs.

Q. With the little girl in her arms?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you do after that?

A. I continued on my way to go see the sick little girl.

Q. Who had said that the little girl was upstairs?

A. Madame Gagnon was the one who told me.

Q. Madame Gagnon was the one who told you?

A. Yes.

Q. You went upstairs, Madame Lemay?

A. Yes.

Q. Recount to the Jurors, will you, what you saw when you got upstairs?

A. When I got upstairs, I saw a very dirty room: straw scattered all over the floor, a wooden bed in the middle of the room, boards here and there -- taken apart -- boards here and there on the floor.

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Q. Was the little girl -- Aurore -- there in the room?

A. The little girl was sleeping on the floor.

Q. Was she in the room?

A. Yes, she was in the room. She was sleeping on the floor on a small.... A bit of... A small pallet -- a small woollen cover near the wall.

Q. She was sleeping there? She was lying there?

A. On the floor.

Q. That was February ninth?

A. ....

Q. What time was it?

A. About two-thirty.

Q. Two-thirty in the afternoon?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she lying on something?

A. There was a small white woollen cover [and] what appeared to be a pillow beneath, under her head.

Q. What type of pillow?

A. What type of pillow? It seemed greyish to me. Maybe white. A bit dirty. When she saw me arrive, she leaned on her elbows. She raised herself up.... She was leaning up on her elbows. I said, "Poor little girl. You are a pitiful sight."

Q. Don't tell us what the little girl told you. Tell us simply what you noticed in the room?

A. Yes, fine.

Q. You say that the child was leaning up on her elbows?

A. Yes.

Q. She spoke to you?

A. Yes.

Q. She spoke to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, would you mind describing the room and describing what you saw? You looked around, I presume?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you see?

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A. The child's sores.... Can I talk about that?

Q. Yes, certainly. Tell us what you saw. Don't tell us what she said but tell us what you saw?

A. The child's hands were all swollen. Her fingers were all crooked. She had reddish black blotches, swollen feet, [and] sores all over her legs.

Q. Were her legs swollen as well?

A. Yes, her feet, knees, legs, feet, knees were very swollen. Her face was also marked up.... [There were] marks on her face.

Q. Where were those marks on her face?

A. She had some on her forehead, on her cheeks, on one eye.

Q. Did she have any others, aside from that?

A. I didn't put my hands on her head. She had a big inflammation on her forehead -- it was a swollen blotch on her forehead. Swollen - here -- on her forehead. And blotches all over her face. Sores, small lines -- I don't know what -- sores. Her face [was] smashed. Her eyes -- both eyes -- appeared [to be] very black, blackish yellow.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. Blackish yellow?

A. Yes, yellow.

BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K.C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. That's all you noticed upstairs?

A. I don't have to tell about the plate?

Q. Yes, tell us everything you saw.

A. A plate, on a small piece of furniture near her, with two potatoes. I noticed that there were two potatoes, a knife and a fork on that plate.

Q. You say that you looked around the room. If I remember correctly, you said that the room was dirty?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you look at.... Did you examine the room after that?

A. Yes, on Ash Wednesday, the eighteenth (18th)....

Q. No, that same day. Was that only the first time

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you had seen it?

A. That day, it was the dirtiness. Then I didn't see anything else. I didn't go look in every corner, but on the eighteenth (18th), I went to see...

Q. Never mind the eighteenth?

A. Fine.

Q. You say that you saw the room [was] dirty.

A. Yes.

Q. Now, after having seen these things which you have just told us about, where did you go?

A. I went downstairs.

Q. You went downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you meet the accused?

A. Yes, she was sitting down. Madame Gagnon was sitting down.

Q. Madame Gagnon was sitting down?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you speak to her?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you tell her?

A. I said that her daughter was a very pitiful sight -- that she was going to die.

Q. What did she say to you about that?

A. I said...

Q. You said. .?

A. I said that her little girl was going to die -- that it was high time to see the doctor.

Q. And then?

A. She told me, "The doctor isn't necessary," she said..

Q. Then?

A. She said it wasn't necessary. She said, "We can telephone to get medicine and ointments."

Q. Was she the one who said that or you?

A. She said, "We can telephone to get medicine and ointments." I said, "Yes, tell him it's for little Aurore." She said, "That's not necessary."

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Q. Repeat that, will you? I didn't understand.

A. I said to say that the medicine and ointments were for little Aurore. That it was for little Aurore.

Q. To tell the doctor...?

A. To tell the doctor that it was for little Aurore.

Q. And then?

A. She said that it wasn't necessary to say it was for little Aurore.

Q. Between February ninth and February twelfth -- the day that she died -- did you have any conversation with the accused?

A. No. When she was about to die, on the twelfth (12th), Madame Gagnon telephoned us to go over. Before that, we hadn't seen her for three days.

Q. Now, after New Year's Day -- after the New Year holiday -- did you speak to the woman?

A. Yes, when she came over to our house.

Q. Recount to the Jurors, will you, the conversation you had with her?

A. The conversations were.... It was that she would say she behaved badly. That her little girl behaved badly. Behaved badly.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. The accused would say that?

A. The accused would say that. That the little girl behaved as badly as a child could.

BY MAÎTRE A. FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. Did she speak to you of her child's health? Whether she was sick or well?

A. No.

Objection to the question as leading. Question allowed by the Court.

Q. Madame Lemay, did you have any other conversations with the woman, aside from the conversation in August and the one on the day you went into the room? Did she ever speak to you about her child, about anything special?

A. Oh yes. Every time she came over, it was to talk about her

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children, but I didn't notice every single thing she told me.

Q. Around New Year's Day, you didn't...you say you saw the accused?

A. Yes, I remember that she had told me once -- when she had come around to talking about her little girl -- that she wished she would die without anyone coming to know about it, her as well.

Q. Do you remember more or less when she told you that?

A. In January.

Q. In January?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, was that the only time she mentioned the little child -- the time she told you about the axe -- or did she speak to you about her aside from that?

A. She spoke about her aside from that.

Q. She spoke to you about her aside from that. What did she tell you?

Objection to the question as leading. Objection upheld.

Q. Was there mention of anything else besides that, Madame Lemay?

A. Yes, she also told me that she had put her little girl -- the oldest of the little girls -- to bed one evening in a room downstairs and that the other one was supposed to sleep upstairs. She said, "We put a stick near the door of the room." ....Madame Gagnon's [room].

Q. Is that all she said?

A. On a bag of salt and then when her little girl.... She said that her little girl came downstairs. When she entered the door of the room, Madame Gagnon got up, took the stick and went to chase her back upstairs. She didn't say that she had gone to chase her back upstairs. She said, "When she got back upstairs, she had no wish to come down all night."

Q. Then, on the day Aurore died, you went over to the house?

A. Yes, I myself am the one who telephoned the priest to come.

Q. You yourself were the one?

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A. Yes.

Q. Were you there when she died?

A. No. She died about ten minutes after I had left.

BY THE COURT: You telephoned the priest to administer [the last rites] to her?

A. I telephoned the priest to administer [the last rites] to her. When I arrived the little girl was unconscious. I asked Madame Gagnon if she had reached the priest. She said, "No." She said, "We called the doctor." I said, "We would need the priest." She said, "The priest, you..." She said, "My husband isn't home." She said, "Go telephone the priest to come if you want." I myself am the one who telephoned the priest to come see the sick girl. I have to explain. I told the priest to come to the Gagnons' place. I didn't say it was for the sick child or anything. I myself was the one who telephoned. Madame Lemay was the one who telephoned to have him come to Madame Gagnon's. I didn't say whether it was for the little girl or not. I said that I myself was the one who was telephoning [and] to come to the Gagnons'.

Q. Now, did you see her after her death? Did you see the child after she died?

A. Yes, I went there after [she] died.

Q. The day she died, Madame Gagnon -- Madame Lemay -- was she, to the best of your knowledge, in the same condition she had been in when you had seen her three days before?

A. After she died?

Q. Yes.

A. She wasn't conscious.

Q. I understand that she wasn't conscious, but aside from that? Her external appearance?

A. Yes.

Q. About the same?

A. Yes, the same.

Q. Did you see her again after her death?

A. Yes.

Q. What about?

A. She was our neighbour. We went over to pay a visit, to keep vigil

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beside the body. Afterward my husband spent the morning at Madame Gagnon's.

Q. Who was it that wrapped and laid out the body of the child?

A. My husband and... my daughter-in-law. My son's wife.

Q. Did you go to the home of the accused after the child's body was laid out, or after she was buried?

A. I went after she was laid out [and] after she was buried as well. It was Monsieur Couture who brought me.

Q. It was Monsieur Couture who brought you?

A. Monsieur Couture, the police[man].

Q. Monsieur Couture, who was heard as a witness yesterday?

A. Yes.

Q. He's the one?

A. Monsieur Couture, the police[man], came to get us. He served us our subpoenas.

Q. Now, Madame Lemay, did you notice anything else that time? When you went with Monsieur Couture?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you notice?

A. He took me upstairs to the room where I had seen the sick girl.

BY THE COURT: On what date was this?

A. Ash Wednesday must have been February eighteenth (18th), if I'm not mistaken. February eighteenth, I think. Ash Wednesday in any case.

BY MAÎTRE FITZPATRICK, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN:

Q. And then?

A. Near the little girl's bed -- beside her bed -- I noticed that there was blood smeared over [an area of] about a couple of feet.... Two to two and a half feet wide and three to four feet long. [There was] blood on the bottom of the piece of furniture and on the floor, as though the child had dragged herself.

Q. When you say it's "as though she had dragged herself".... the blood you saw was near the bed, you say?

A. And I had seen the little girl lying on the floor near her little bed -- lying on the floor.

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Q. When you saw the child, was she lying in a bed?

A. No, no. On the floor. I put her in her little bed, but she was on the floor.

Q. She was on the floor?

A. She was on the floor.

Q. Now, did you examine.... Did you notice anything else that day? Did you notice anything else in the room?

A. No. The floor had been swept in the room. I noticed blood.

Q. Did you turn some thing[s] over to Detective Couture and, if so, would you please name them?

A. The little night-gown the sick child was wearing when I put her in her bed, and a mattress cover and a pillowcase. I don't quite remember. Three pieces, I think. A night-gown, a mattress cover.

Q. Yesterday a straw mattress was produced. Were you the one who turned it over?

A. No.

Q. You're saying that you turned over...?

A. A night-gown.

Q. You turned over a night-gown?

A. A mattress cover. I don't quite remember if there wasn't a pillowcase. I'm not certain of that.

Q. You're not certain?

A. No, I'm not certain. But the mattress cover and the night-gown.... I myself turned it over.

Q. Where did you get it?

A. It was on the floor near the chimney of their kitchen that we call a summer kitchen.

Q. How do you know it belongs to the deceased?

A. Well, I noticed....that it was the night-gown. I recognized the night-gown she had been wearing when she was in her bed. They pointed out to me where the night-gown was.

(The defence accepts that the witness will say that she turned over the night-gown, the mattress cover and the pillowcase to Detective Couture.)

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Q. Was it a pillow, a pillowcase or the pillow itself?

A. It must have been just an envelope. You can tell very well by how wide it is that it's not a pillow. The pillowcase and then the mattress cover and the night-gown....

Q. A pillowcase then?

A. Yes.

Q. So, did you turn over any of the instruments produced here --
these switches and these pieces of wood -- to Monsieur Couture?

A. No, I'm not the one who gave [him] that.

Q. You're not the one who gave [him] that?

A. No.

Q. That's all that you gave [him]? These are the only items you gave [him]?

A. Yes.

CROSS-EXAMINED BY MAÎTRE J. N. FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. What is your maiden name, Madame?

A. Exilda Auger.

Q. Are you a relative of the accused?

A. No.

Q. Of her husband?

A. No.

Q. Not at all?

A. No.

Q. You said that the accused was Télesphore Gagnon's second wife, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You are neighbours?

A. Yes.

Q. How far apart?

A. It's about two and a half arpents to three arpents.

Q. Since she has been living with Télesphore Gagnon...

A. Pardon?

Q. Since the accused has been living with Télesphore Gagnon, and

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since she married him, have you visited each other regularly?

A. Not much the first years. Not much as long as she wasn't married. She wasn't married for two years. I didn't go.

Q. You didn't go?

A. No.

Q. She resided with him for two years without being married?

A. Well, supposedly, yes.

Q. Do you know, Madame?

A. Well, you know, I'm not the one who married her.

Q. You know that Télesphore Gagnon's first wife was confined in the Beauport Asylum, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And on top of that, you know that the woman accused here was his cousin?

A. Yes.

Q. By her first marriage?

A. Cousin.... I don't know how they're related.

Q. And that when his wife was committed to the Beauport Asylum, she went there to care for the children?

A. [When] she came there, there weren't any children. The children weren't with him.

Q. The children weren't with him?

A. No.

Q. Didn't he have a baby?

A. No, he didn't have a baby. She came during the winter. They didn't have him until the spring, in May, from what I can remember. He was alone when he had her come.

Q. You're positive of that?

A. ....

Q. That there were no children there when the accused came?

A. No. [There were] no children in the house.

Q. Do you swear it?

A. .....

Q. Did she have any?

A. But they weren't with her.

Q. They weren't with her?

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A. Yes.

Q. You're certain of that, Madame?

A. Yes.

Q. And during that time, you didn't visit her?

A. No. From what I can remember, I didn't go more than once one spring. Not more than once.

Q. At the time you didn't like the accused very much?

A. No. But I never hated her either.

Q. You never hated her either?

A. No.

Q. Are you sure of that?

A. We didn't happen to have occasion to go over. We didn't go.

Q. Is it not true that, at the time, you and the others didn't want to visit Télesphore Gagnon because you claimed he was living with her as husband and wife?

A. No, that didn't have anything to do with it. It was because we didn't happen to have occasion to go. We didn't go out very much. We didn't go.

Q. After she married, you would go over more often? When she was sick you would go see her, and then [when] she had children, you came over to the house?

A. When she was sick, we would go see the children, and I was the one who nursed her.

Q. This was since she married?

A. Yes.

Q. And have you visited each other regularly since she married Gagnon?

A. Not often, not regularly. When she was sick, we would go more often. When she wasn't sick we went less often.

Q. Very rarely?

A. Yes.

Q. Has there been any change in your relationship over the course of the past years, since her marriage?

A. If there's been....?

Q. Any change in your visits with one another?

A. Yes, during the winter.... I didn't go once all winter.

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Q. Why?

A. I went on All Saints Day. Around All Saints Day. I didn't go again until February.

Q. Why didn't you go?

A. Because I was sick. I had my chores at home. I stayed at home.

Q. She went to see you while you were sick?

A. Yes, she came over often to visit.

BY THE COURT: She came over often to visit?

A. Yes, twice a week. Sometimes, [when] she didn't come one week, she would come three times a week.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. You say you like her. Didn't you recently express your opinion of the accused?

A. I didn't say I liked her and [or] that I hated her either. I didn't go over because I didn't happen to have the occasion.

Q. I'm asking you the question, Madame. Is it not true, Madame, that recently, while coming here to testify, you expressed your opinion about the accused?

A. I don't understand what you mean by that?

Q. (Question is re-read)

BY THE COURT: Maître Francoeur means what you think of the accused.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. Did you not say -- if I'm not mistaken, you are here to confirm whether it's true, and I'm forced to ask you this in the interest of my client.

A. Yes.

Q. -- on the train, while coming here to testify, that she was a bitch and that she should be hanged?

A. No, I never said that, never. I didn't say she was a bitch, that she should be hanged. I said that she should be judged as she deserved.

Q. Did you not say, in the presence of other witnesses, especially Crown witnesses and others from Fortierville, that she was a bitch

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and that she was going to be hanged?

A. No. I never said the word 'bitch', never.

Q. Did you say any other similar words?

A. No.

Q. That she should be hanged?

A. No, I never said that word, never.

Q. Can you swear it?

A. No.

Q. That you didn't say that, while coming on the train the other day? In the presence of other witnesses, while coming here on the train to testify?

A. No, I never said 'bitch'. I said that she would deserve to be hanged. I never said 'bitch'.

Q. You said she would deserve to be hanged?

A. If the judge found hanging fitting.

Q. You expressed your opinion that she deserved to be hanged.

A. I wasn't the one judging her.

Q. You weren't the one judging her?

A. No, it's the Judge.

Q. In your opinion, she should be hanged?

A. She should be punished as she deserves.

Q. Did you say that, in your opinion, she should be hanged?

A. I don't remember. I'm not able.... I'm not able to swear one way or the other. I don't remember having said that.

Q. You have just said that you said it?

A. I said that she should be punished as she deserved.

Q. Did you speak about hanging and about rope?

A. If you ask me, some people claim -- not me -- some people claim that it was what she deserves. Make her suffer a good while. That she suffer. That was what she deserved.

Q. That was what you said on the train?

A. I don't remember if I said that on the train. I'm not able to say.

Q. It's very important?

A. Yes, it's very important.

- 21 -

Q. And it is feeling this way that you have come to testify today?

A. No, not so that....

Q. No?

A. No, not so that she would be hanged. So that justice would be done.

Q. If in having justice done, she is hanged, will that make you very happy?

A. No, that will make me very sad because, for a neighbour, it's very mortifying.

Q. Yes, we'll see if that makes you very sad.

A. ....

Q. Madame, you first reported an initial conversation that you allegedly had with the accused last summer, in August?

A. It wasn’t the first one but.....that we had with her.

Q. I beg your pardon?

A. It wasn’t the first time we had met in August. I wanted to comment.... The time we met in August -- the axe handle she had shown me.

Q. Regarding the child?

A. Regarding the child.

Q. Where did this conversation take place, Madame?

A. At Madame Gagnon’s.

Q. At Madame Gagnon’s?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it in the day or in the evening?

A. In the morning.

Q. In the morning?

A. Yes.

Q. Her husband was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was there?

A. There must have been children. It was summer. They were moving about, in and out through the doors, but I had gone myself.... I had my granddaughter.

Q. Were you alone with the accused?

A. I think her little children were there. I can’t say

- 22 -

which ones. There were children in the kitchen. I can’t say which ones.

Q. Were the children following the conversation you had together?

A. I didn’t notice.

Q. When she spoke these words about these punishments, did the accused.... Was this in front of Aurore and Marie-Jeanne, while pointing out the children?

A. I really can’t say which ones were in the house. I can’t say, but I know that she pointed out to me the one she had beaten with [it]. It was Aurore.

Q. At that point, only you two could understand [what was being said], and no one else, according to you, could hear?

A. Yes. If there had been others, they would have heard us, but there were no others.

Q. There were no others?

A. ...From what I can remember, I don’t know. I didn’t notice if there were any children there, two or three, I didn’t notice.

Q. Are you certain the door was open?

A. Yes.

Q. And the children were moving about, weren't they?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see Aurore that time?

A. I didn’t notice. I must have seen her but I didn’t notice.

Q. You didn’t notice her?

A. I didn’t notice her. I can’t say which of the children I saw. No, I can’t say.

Q. Had you also spoken about Aurore before then?

A. Yes, she had also spoken about her.

Q. When?

A. I didn’t notice the date. Each time she came over, that's what she talked about.

Q. Was this during the summer?

A. Yes.

Q. What would she say?

- 23 -

A. She would say that the children were hard to discipline.

Q. She would say that?

A. She would say that her children were hard to discipline.

Q. Did she say that she had had enough of Aurore and Marie-Jeanne or the others?

A. Marie-Jeanne as well.

Q. Marie-Jeanne as well?

A. They couldn’t beat Marie-Jeanne. She said, “She takes off into the fields. She runs away. You have to run after [her]. Aurore doesn’t run away. We can beat her.”

Q. When did she say that?

A. It was [last] winter and last summer.

Q. You forgot to say that?

A. There are many words [sic] I’ve forgotten, that I haven't said.

Q. We’ll make you say them.

A. You can't.

Q. Don’t say that. I’m going to make you remember some very unpleasant things.

A. There are enough of those.

Q. You have already testified in cases here?

A. Yes.

Q. For selling alcohol without a licence?

A. Yes. I didn’t hesitate to talk either. They made me tell the truth.

Q. You were sentenced?

A. Yes. We faced our own trial, and others will face their own fate.

Q. You were sentenced.

A. ....

Q. That time you didn't mind testifying? You had accused someone during your testimony?

A. You get used to it.

Q. You get used to it?

A. You get used to speaking in front of educated Judges.

Q. But that time -- when you were tried for

- 24 -

selling alcohol without a licence -– you said things that you were forced to retract later?

A. Yes, but that’s not the case today. You're dragging things up that were said during that case.

Q. You're saying that I can't make you remember things?

A. For the trial. Not for anything else.

Q. What you have said under oath is very important?

A. Maybe if we examined your life as well, Monsieur Francoeur, we might find something?

Q. You can go right ahead, but it doesn’t concern the case. So I consider, Madame, [that you should] not make threats. Answer the questions.

A. If you speak to me calmly, I’ll answer.

Q. You must understand that this is serious. From what I can see you would be all too happy to see this woman and her husband hanged.

BY THE COURT: Don’t answer that, Madame.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCCUSED:

Q. Every time she spoke to you about her children, she told you they were difficult to discipline?

A. Yes.

Q. Yes.

Q. Did she tell you that about Aurore?

A. Yes, she spoke about her.

Q. What would she say?

A. Yes.

Q. What would she tell you?

A. She would tell me that she behaved as badly as a child could.

Q. Did she mention any examples?

A. Yes, she mentioned some.

Q. What did she tell you?

Objection to this evidence by the Crown. Objection suspended for the moment.

Q. She told you that her children were difficult to discipline?

- 25 -

A. Yes.

Q. Was the axe handle she showed you at the time white or black?

A. It was white.

Q. Did she tell you she was the one who punished Aurore with it, or her husband?

A. Her husband.

Q. That time, she told you that it was her husband who had punished her with the axe handle?

A. Yes.

Q. And, if I understood correctly, you said that she had been hurt with that axe handle?

A. She told me that he had hurt [her], but I pointed out that a man spanks too hard with an axe handle –- that he could dislocate her limbs, if you [sic] spank with an axe handle.

Q. Did she tell you that she was forced to discipline the children severely or harshly?

A. We don’t always know the right terms. Usually we say severely or harshly. It means the same thing.

Q. In your opinion, they both mean the same thing?

A. Yes, in my opinion. I’m not educated enough. Often when we spoke about her daughter, we didn’t always use the right terms.

Q. For people where you come from, harshly and severely are the same thing?

A. Very often we say the first word that comes to mind. We say either severely or harshly.

Q. But the question [is]: did she say severely or harshly?

A. I don’t clearly remember if she said severely or harshly. I don’t clearly remember.

Q. Did she tell you that they punished her like that for no reason, or was it because of her behaviour?

A. Because of her behaviour. Because she wanted to play. She didn’t want to wash the dishes. What's even more, she said that some nights [when] she didn’t want to wash the dishes, the little girl would go to bed at midnight, [and] other nights at three o’clock.

- 26 -

She would spend nights sleeping on the floor. Some nights she would go to bed at midnight. Other nights she would get up at three o’clock; she would go upstairs to sleep in her room at three o’clock in the morning.

Q. Would she sleep on the floor like that because she didn’t want to wash the dishes?

A. Yes. Because she didn’t want to wash the dishes. She would leave her all alone in the kitchen to wash the dishes. Other evenings she [would stay up] with her until nine or ten o'clock to wash the dishes. Then she would leave the little girl all alone and afterward the little girl would sleep on the floor.... Sometimes until midnight, sometimes until three o’clock in the morning, when she would go up to sleep in her bed.

Q. During the summer?

A. During the summer and during the fall. She told me about it in the fall, around September I believe. I can’t say exactly.

Q. You can’t say exactly?

A. No. After she told me that I.... But she told me she slept on the floor.

Q. Did she tell you that she would go on the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. All over?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say that she would go in her father’s clothes?

A. Yes, but she didn’t say she was the one, however.

Q. Pardon?

A. She didn’t say she was the one. She didn’t say she was the one. She would accuse the child. She would say it was the child who said that.

Q. She said it was Aurore who did that?

A. Yes, she said it was Aurore who did that.

Q. That’s what I'm asking you, Madame.

A. ...

Q. When you went over on February ninth, Madame, did she say anything else about the little girl as well?

- 27 -

A. She told me that she would go on the floor and in her bed and that that was why she didn’t put her to sleep in her bed.

Q. Did she say that she would steal money?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say that she was impure?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she tell you that she had even stolen in church?

A. Yes, she told us that as well.

Q. When you went to see the child on February ninth, Madame, you say that your granddaughter had gone upstairs. Your daughter’s daughter was upstairs with Marie-Jeanne and, if I understood correctly, you asked the accused for permission to go upstairs to see the child? Or did you go upstairs without asking her?

A. Oh no, I went up on my own initiative.

Q. On your own initiative?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the accused try to prevent you from going upstairs?

A. No.

Q. Not at all?

A. No.

Q. And when you saw the child in her room, had Marie-Jeanne gone back downstairs with your granddaughter?

A. Yes.

Q. You were alone?

A. She came back upstairs afterward. She took my granddaughter downstairs and then came back upstairs.

Q. She came back upstairs afterward?

A. Yes.

Q. And you say she was lying there on a pallet?

A. Yes, a small grey woollen sheet.

Q. Yes, but wasn’t there a mattress underneath?

A. No.

Q. Not at all?

A. No.

Q. About what time of day was it?

A. About two o'clock. Two, two-thirty in the afternoon.

- 28 -

Q. Was this grey sheet in the middle of the partition?

A. No, it was simply lying there on the floor. The head of her bed lay to the north. The sheet stretched to the south, but it was short.

Q. So the sheet wasn't lying along the partition?

A. No.

Q. How many feet away from the partition was it?

A. Her head was at the partition and the foot of the sheet stretched to the south. Her head was at the north. The sheet stretched to the south.

Q. And was she sitting or lying on it?

A. Lying. When she saw me arrive, she leaned up...

Q. Did she have a sheet over her?

A. Yes, a large one beneath her.

Q. And on top?

A. She had nothing on top.

Q. She had nothing on top?

A. No, she had nothing. It was underneath.

Q. Did she have on a dress?

A. I noticed a torn little dress. I didn’t notice what it was or anything.

Q. Did she have on stockings?

A. No.

Q. She didn’t have any stockings on?

A. ....

Q. Did she have any dressings or cloths on her feet?

A. Only on her knees.

Q. She had cloths only on her knees?

A. Yes.

Q. Dressings?

A. I don’t know. She had a cloth [wrapped] around her knees. Although I can’t say.... She had cloths wrapped around her knees.

Q. Around both or around just one?

A. On both, I think.

Q. On both, you think?

A. But I can’t say. I can't say for certain that it was on one or

- 29 -

on both. I can't say for certain.

Q. Did she have dressings on her head?

A. No.

Q. Was it cold in the room?

A. No.

Q. It was warm?

A. Yes.

Q. The room was well-heated?

A. Yes, it was heated from below.

Q. It was heated from below. The stove goes through the room?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. Not the stove –- the stovepipe?

A. Yes, the stovepipe may go through the room. Yes.

Q. And is the door of the bedroom near the stairs?

A. The door of the stairs... The partition goes from one partition to the other. It's hardly a partition at all. As soon as you get to the top of the stairs you're in the room.

Q. And the room was warm? She didn't appear to be cold?

A. No, no.

Q. And that was in the morning?

A. Oh no, in the afternoon.

Q. At about what time in the afternoon?

A. At about two, two-thirty.

Q. You say that you found pieces of boards in the room?

A. Boards from the wooden bed here and there. Spread out around the room. Bits of straw.

Q. Boards from the wooden bed?

A. Boards from the wooden bed.

Q. There was another wooden bed there?

A. There was another wooden bed. The boards weren’t spread out.... [They] weren't spread out on the floor.

Q. She didn’t have a mattress either?

A. No.

- 30 -

Q. Is it not true that the mattresses had been removed that day to be cleaned? Are you aware of this?

A. No, not as far as I know.

Q. You say that same [straw] was scattered over.... ?

A. Over the floor, yes.

Q. A lot?

A. The floor was covered.

Q. The floor was covered?

A. Covered with straw.

Q. So how were you able to see blood if the floor was covered with straw?

A. I saw it on the eighteenth -– Ash Wednesday. I saw blood. The straw had been swept up.

Q. How deep was the straw?

A. I didn’t notice how deep. It was all over. The floor was fully covered.

Q. And the boards were scattered around?

A. Scattered about the room, yes.

Q. You don’t know if that was where the children would play? In that room?

A. Oh, they must have played upstairs...

Q. Wouldn’t the state of the room in the afternoon indicate that the children hadn’t gone to play in the straw, that the straw was spread out?

A. No, there would have...

Q. Do you swear that the children didn’t go there to play?

A. Oh yes, the children would go play upstairs. But what I did notice was that the boards of the wooden bed were on the floor. But it must have been the children who put them [there]. The boards of the wooden bed were on the floor.

Q. Did you find a switch there?

A. No.

Q. You didn’t see anything like that?

A. No, I didn’t notice either.

Q. You say you saw [that] both her hands were swollen?

A. Yes.

- 31 -

Q. Very swollen?

A. Yes, especially her right hand. The fingers were all crooked.

Q. The fingers were all crooked?

A. Yes. Swollen. Very swollen.

Q. Very swollen. You say her fingers [were] all crooked, but...?

A. So crooked they couldn’t even straighten out.

Q. They couldn’t even straighten out?

A. No.

Q. Did you notice whether she had a lesion or a wound on her palm?

A. No, I didn’t notice. I know her hand was very swollen.

Q. Were there any wounds on the back of her hand?

A. Yes, she seemed to have other wounds. I don’t know if they were very deep. Her hands seemed to be full of them.

Q. Her left hand?

A. Her left hand wasn’t as swollen.

Q. Not as swollen?

A. No, not as swollen as her right hand.

Q. So was her left hand contracted, crooked?

A. No.

Q. The back of her hand?

A. I didn’t notice if it had many sores.

Q. Were her feet swollen?

A. Very swollen.

Q. Was the area around her foot injured, or her whole leg?

A. Well, her leg a little as well, but her foot was more swollen. Her foot and her knee.

Q. Which one?

A. Both feet.

Q. In the same way?

A. I didn’t notice. I noted...

Q. More or less, to the eye?

A. I didn’t really notice, but they both seemed

- 32 -

very swollen to me.

Q. They both seemed very swollen to you?

A. Yes. I didn’t notice. They were the same.

Q. Was the swelling underneath her foot, on the sole of her foot, or on her joint?

A. On top, it was along her entire foot.

Q. Underneath?

A. Underneath, I didn’t notice.

Q. Was this swelling black or yellow?

A. It was very reddish blue.

Q. That makes for a nice colour?

A. Yes. If you had been in her place, you would have been in pain. You would have seen that this isn’t funny.

Q. You say that there was something the matter with her eye, Madame?

A. Yes.

Q. Her right eye?

A. Yes, it was her right eye.

Q. Was it above her eyebrow, Madame? Above her right eyebrow?

A. I can’t say exactly. It must have been above it. But he’s said enough about it. We aren't able to tell you everything. You saw Doctor Marois’ testimony: it [she] was all covered with lesions and sores.

Q. You don’t know him? You didn’t hear him?

A. ....

Q. You didn't hear him?

A. No, I didn’t hear him. I saw the little girl myself.

Q. You didn’t hear Doctor Marois’ testimony?

A. No. I read –- I heard -- the descriptions Doctor Marois gave at the inquiry.

Q. Doctor Marois didn’t find all that?

A. He was very lucky not to have found everything.

Q. Was her forehead also reddish blue, Madame?

A. No, her forehead was practically black. Swollen. On top.... In the middle of her forehead.

Q. In the middle of her forehead?

- 33 -

A. In the middle of her forehead.

Q. What colour was it?

A. It was....more like brown. I can’t say what colour exactly. It was dark red. A sore. And the colour of the sores.... I can’t –- I didn’t take enough time either to examine everything.

Q. Did she have lesions over her whole face?

A. Yes, small sores everywhere. Over her whole face. Here and there. Yes.

Q. Were there scabs on them?

A. Yes.

Q. Over her entire face?

A. Not all across it. Here and there.

Q. About how many?

A. I didn't count.

Q. Were they small red spots covered with scabs?

A. There was a small scab. As though.... It seemed to be either [from a] fall or the lash of a whip.

Q. She had a lot of them?

A. Yes. Or so it appeared, at any rate.

Q. Did you see the accused strike her child?

A. No, I never did.

Q. What grounds do you have for saying that the child was beaten to death? You never saw her father or the mother hit [her]?

A. No.

Q. Can you swear it? That she.... ?

A. Because they told me so themselves.

Q. Who?

A. Monsieur and Madame Gagnon.

Q. Because they told you so?

A. Yes, the child didn't die in her bed under her care....

Q. Those little lesions that you saw all over her face? Each one corresponds to a blow?

A. That's what they say.

Q. Do you believe it yourself?

- 34 -

A. Yes, I believe it.

Q. Caused by blows?

A. Caused by blows.

Q. With what? An axe handle?

A. I don't know with what.

Q. So she had some all over her face?

A. Not her entire face. In several places. I didn't count.

Q. Were her cheeks swollen?

A. No.

Q. Not at all?

A. No.

Q. Those scabs were all that you saw on her face?

A. Yes.

Q. Were those scabs yellow or.... ?

A. No, the scabs were brown. She had small brown scabs on her face.

Q. Did you examine her arms?

A. Only her hands.

Q. Only her hands?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any of those small scabs on her hands?

A. She had many on her hands.

Q. The same thing as on her face?

A. I can't say that it was the same thing as on her face.

Q. Were there scabs as well?

A. I can't say if there were scabs.

Q. Were there scabs on her feet?

A. Yes.

Q. The same thing as on her face?

A. No, not the same thing.

Q. Not the same colour?

A. .....

Q. Not the same colour?

A. No.

Q. What colour were they?

A. I didn't notice the colour, but there were scabs. On her feet, she

- 35-

had lesions that were still bleeding.

Q. Lesions that were bleeding, on her feet?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you see blood on her feet?

A. The blood wasn't flowing. Only her wounds were reddish with blood.

Q. Did you see blood on any of the lesions on her hand?

A. I didn't notice.

Q. When...? There was a plate with potatoes on it?

A. Yes.

Q. A knife and a fork?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she have a pillow and a pillowcase, Madame?

A. I didn't notice. She must have had a pillowcase. It seemed to be a dirty white. I don't know if it was a pillowcase to support her head -- a pillowcase or a pillow -- because her head wasn't...

Q. When you asked Aurore where her wounds came from...?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Aurore answer -- without saying what she told you?

A. Yes.

Q. She told you?

A. ....

Q. She told you?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you alone with her when she told you that?

A. When I started talking to her, I was alone. Then Marie Jeanne came upstairs.

Q. Then Marie Jeanne came upstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Marie Jeanne there when she answered you?

A. I didn't notice.

Q. You're not certain?

A. No, I'm not certain.

- 36 -

Q. A short while ago, you said that you told her that day to send for the doctor? That in your opinion the child was going to die?

A. Yes.

Q. And that she answered, "We'll send for medicine"?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the accused not tell you that she had already got medicine for those wounds? For the child?

A. No.

Q. She didn't tell you?

A. No.

Q. Did she not tell you that she had already got iodine tincture and ointment?

A. No.

Q. And that it wasn't necessary to get -- to send for -- the doctor? That she had sent...?

A. She told me to telephone. To get medicine from him.

Q. She told you to telephone? To get medicine?

A. To get medicine from him.

Q. Did she not say that the doctor knew what she was suffering from?

A. No.

Q. She didn't say that?

A. No.

Q. But she told you, "It's not necessary. We'll telephone him..."?

A. Yes.

Q. "For him to send us medicine"?

A. I said, "Say it's for the little girl." She said, "It's not necessary to say it's for the little girl."

Q. She said, "It's not necessary to say it's for the little girl"?

A. No, no.

Q. The day the child died, you say that someone telephoned you?

A. Yes.

Q. Who telephoned you?

- 37 -

A. Madame Gagnon herself.

Q. To go over to her place? That the child was sick?

A. That the child was sick.

Q. That the child was very sick?

A. ...

Q. And you saw the child?

A. Yes.

Q. Was she the one who asked you to call the priest?

A. No.

Q. You were the one?

A. I was the one.

Q. She didn't object?

A. No.

Q. You say that you found the night-gown, the mattress cover and a pillowcase -- or something else -- which you turned over to Monsieur Couture?

A. A mattress cover and a night-gown.

Q. A mattress cover and a night-gown?

A. Yes.

Q. And where did you get it? Was it Marie-Jeanne who gave it to you?

A. I'm the one who went to get it in the pile they pointed out to me. I went to get it in the pile.

Q. You're saying that you went to get it?

A. Near the chimney in the kitchen.

Q. In the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. It wasn't hidden?

A. No.

Q. It was really there....?

A. It was on the floor. I picked it off the floor.

Q. It was on the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. The parents didn't return after the service?

A. No.

Q. The accused had been arrested?

- 38 -

A. Yes.

Q. You spoke earlier -- speaking of sticks -- of a conversation where the accused allegedly told you she had placed a stick near the bedroom door. Was it near the door of Aurore's room?

A. No. Hers. Madame Gagnon's.

Q. Madame Gagnon's bedroom door?

A. Yes, Madame Gagnon's.

Q. She told you that she had placed a stick near her bedroom door?

A. Near her bedroom door, on a bag of salt.

Q. Was that during the summer?

A. No, it was winter.

Q. It was winter?

A. Yes.

Q. When she told you that?

A. Yes.

Q. But did she tell you when she had placed that stick there?

A. From the way she spoke, it seemed to me to be during the week....

Q. But when was this? Was this in winter? Was this in January, in February?

A. In January.

Q. In January?

A. In January.

Q. At the beginning of January?

A. At the end.

Q. At the end of January?

A. At the end of January.

Q. And she told you that Aurore would go downstairs at night?

A. She said that she went downstairs that night to sleep with her little sister.

Q. To sleep with her little sister?

A. Yes, that's what she told me.

Q. Marie Jeanne slept downstairs with her little sister?

A. All alone downstairs. She had brought Marie-Jeanne down to sleep

- 39 -

in the room downstairs.

Q. Did she say why she had brought Marie Jeanne downstairs to sleep?

A. Because Aurore would wet her bed.

Q. Before, the two little girls used to sleep together in the upstairs room?

A. Yes.

Q. And she told you that she had made Aurore –- Marie-Jeanne -- sleep downstairs because Aurore would wet her bed?

A. Yes.

Q. She didn't state any other reasons?

A. She told me she would dirty her bed.

Q. Did she say she would relieve herself in bed?

A. She said she would relieve herself in bed.

Q. That she would pee and pass stools?

A. Yes.

Q. She didn't state any other reasons?

A. No.

Q. She didn't say that the two little girls would play around together?

A. No.

Q. And that it was also for that reason that she had placed them in separate beds?

A. The first time she spoke about it, she said it was because she would wet her bed. And after....

Q. She talked about her wetting her bed? About how the two children would indulge in playing with each other?

A. The first time, it wasn't a question of that at all. The first time, [it was] because she would wet her bed.

Q. And the second time?

A. Yes, she said that she had been forced to bring Aurore downstairs.

Q. Marie-Jeanne?

A. Marie Jeanne...downstairs, because of that.

Q. The first time, because she would wet her bed?

A. She said that she had even placed

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a stick near the door that time and that Aurore didn't go sleep with her little sister downstairs.

Q. She went to sleep with her little sister downstairs?

A. And she chased her back up. She chased her back up. She had no wish to go back down again throughout the night.

Q. Aurore wanted to go sleep with Marie-Jeanne?

A. Yes, that's what she said.

Q. Did you ever see a settle-bed in the house of the accused?

A. No.

Q. You didn't see one?

A. No.

Q. A bench that is used as a bed?

A. No.

Q. You didn't see that?

A. ....

Q. Afterward, you returned with Detective Couture?

A. Yes.

Q. On the eighteenth (18th)?

A. Yes.

Q. He's the one who went to get you, to go visit the room?

A. Yes.

Q. You went with him?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you find....in what state did you find the room?

A. The room had been swept.

Q. The room had been swept?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there a mattress or a pallet in the room?

A. No.

Q. There was nothing at all?

A. There must have been.... The wooden bed must have been in the room. Yes, I noticed that.

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Q. A wooden bed?

A. Yes.

Q. A large wooden bed?

A. Yes.

Q. Aside from the wooden bed, there wasn't anything?

A. I know I saw that there were rags, petticoats, rags on the wooden bed. But I didn't notice.

Q. Did you tell the detective you had found a switch?

A. No, not me, because it's not in front of me.

Q. Did he point out the presence of blood on the floor? On the partition?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there blood on the partition?

A. Yes.

Q. Along the full width of the partition?

A. No. In rows. Here and there.

Q. In rows?

A. Yes. In places.... Beside where the pool of blood....

Q. So along the partition, there were rows that you consider to be rows of blood?

A.[sic] How high up, approximately?

A. The rows must have been about four to five inches [up]. Five inches. Five to six inches.

Q. From the floor?

A. Yes.

Q. Five to six inches from the floor?

A. Yes. I didn't measure.

Q. But approximately?

A. ....

Q. And all along the entire length of the partition, or only beside the bed?

A. No. Beside the bed. The blood was beside the bed. All along the floor right up to the wall. All along the floor right up to the wall.

Q. So were there rows of blood, Madame, along the

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partition?

A. Oh no, it crossed the partition diagonally.

Q. It wasn't there that day?

A. No, but the partition was still there.

Q. There was blood beside the bed?

A. Yes, rows of it, up to the wall.

Q. It was in rows again?

A. And there was a streak of it on the floor.

Q. There was a streak of it on the floor?

A. Yes, across almost the entire floor.

Q. The size of the room?

A. No. Two to two and a half feet wide, as I said a little while ago.

Q. Two feet to two and a half feet wide? Near the bed?

A. Near the bed, reaching the bed in the middle, [at] the other end of the wall.

Q. You say streaks. Were they spots?

A. No. It was as though she had dragged herself through the blood. Not wiped up either. A trail of blood.

Q. You say that when you went there before, there had been straw on top?

A. Yes.

Q. You couldn't see the blood at the time?

A. No. I didn't notice either.

Q. You didn't notice either?

Q. After that, you say there were traces of blood? Streaks?

A. Yes.

Q. Starting from the bed?

A. Yes.

Q. So you're saying two or three feet towards the south?

A. About two feet or two and a half feet wide as it stretched to the north, the northeast, and then toward the southwest.

Q. On each side?

A. No, on one side only.

Q. On one side only?

A. Yes.

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Q. And these streaks weren't beside the bed, in the centre of the room? Rather, they started from the middle of the room?

A. Oh no, they stretched alongside the bed toward the wall [and] followed along the wall.

Q. They followed along the wall?

A. They followed along the wall.

Q. And those streaks of blood beside the bed started from the centre of the bed and followed along the wall?

A. Along the wall.

Q. And there were circles on the wall?

A. There was blood on the wall as well.

Q. There were streaks nearby?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn't see any circles nearby either?

A. No.

Q. You didn't notice that there were finger marks of sorts in several places?

A. No, I didn't notice that.

Q. You didn't notice that?

A. No.

Q. Did you see circles on the partition?

A. There were large patches on the partition. As though.... I don't know. I didn't notice. They were large patches....

Q. It looked as though a child had gone and wiped [her] fingers on the partition?

A. I didn't notice that. It didn't look like that either.

Q. There were circles?

A. Yes, pieces of blood....

Q. Pieces?

A. Not pieces.... Pieces. On the wall. Pieces of blood put on the wall.

Q. Spots?

A. Spots. It was blood at any rate.

Q. When you went afterward on the very day [she died] to keep vigil near the body....? You went?

A. Yes.

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Q. The child was laid out in a room downstairs?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you prevented from entering? Were you told not to come?

A. No.

Q. Not at all?

A. No.

Q. Everyone was going?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there were many people?

A. No. There were three or four of us who came in the morning.

Q. You didn't go in the evening?

A. No, my husband was the one who went in the evening.

Q. You saw the accused attend church in Fortierville, Madame?

A. Yes.

Q. She goes to mass?

A. Yes.

Q. To your knowledge, would she go to confession?

A. She must have been going, surely. I didn't always pay attention to what she did. She must have been going.

Q. You would see her in church on Sunday, like everyone else?

A. Yes.

Q. She took her children to church?

A. Yes, she went to church.

Q. She went to church regularly?

A. I didn't notice.

Q. You didn't notice?

A. No.

Q. Like everyone else? Didn't she?

A. Like everyone else, more or less. I believe so.

Q. She would also go to church during the Forty Hours Devotion and the novenas?

A. Yes.

- 45 -

Q. She and her husband?

A. Yes.

Q. As long as they have been living there?

A. Yes, like the others they went every feast day.

Q. And you never noticed that they didn't go to church to fulfil their religious duty?

A. No.

Q. Their children went to school as well? They sent them to school?

A. No, they didn't go to school.

Q. They didn't go in the winter?

A. Not in the winter. Not in the summer either.

Q. Not in the summer either? Do you swear it?

A. Well, they went for about ten days...

Q. You swear that the children didn't go to school in the summer?

A. You'll see from the schoolmistress's testimony. I think they told me only ten days or eighteen days. Not more than eighteen days. At any rate, they didn't go during the summer.

Q. They didn't go in the winter?

A. No.

Q. Not Aurore, nor Marie-Jeanne, nor any of the children?

A. No. They only went for a little while.

Q. They don't have a hired girl?

A. No.

Q. She's a woman who would do all her work herself?

A. Yes.

Q. He has quite a considerable farm?

A. Yes.

Q. He has several animals?

A. Yes.

Q. Several cows to milk?

A. Yes.

Q. Many barnyard chores?

A. Yes.

Q. She would go milk the cows?

A. I don't know. He has his children. I don't know, but they say

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his children were the ones. I don't know which one it was.

Q. She had to do all the chores that are usually done on a farm?

A. Yes.

Q. And to take care of the children?

A. Yes.

Q. She has a young child? She has a baby?

A. A nine- to ten-month-old baby, I believe.

Q. She had another one as well?

A. Another one but....

Q. Is it not true that she had a miscarriage? If not before, then after?

A. Yes.

Q. Shortly after she married?

A. Two and a half or three months, I do believe.

Q. Two and a half or three months?

A. Yes. I didn't notice.

Q. And Doctor Lafond came as well?

A. Yes.

Q. Madame, did you personally ever notice anything in this woman's behaviour, aside from what you may have been told, that would have led you to believe that she was mistreating her child to death? Speaking of little Aurore?

Objection to the question as being a question of opinion. Question allowed.

A. Yes. I do believe she was mistreating the children.

Q. Yes, but not based what she told you. But in her behaviour at her house when you went there?

A. Yes.

Q. The events you saw? Not the conversations you have related?

A. Yes, by the fact that she didn't beat them. The way.... When I went there, she didn't beat them. The way she spoke to them.

Q. The way she spoke to them?

A. Yes.

- 47 -

Q. You conclude that she must have beaten them [sic] to death, don't you?

A. ....

Q. Pardon?

A. Well, they beat her a.... That time. Supposedly.

Q. Do you have any children, Madame?

A. I have a twenty-eight-year-old (28) son.

Q. You have several?

A. No, I have only one.

Q. Have you ever disciplined him?

A. Yes, but with every right and reason.

Q. With every right and reason?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever beat him with a switch?

A. No.

Q. Never?

A. No.

Q. What did you beat him with?

A. With my hands. It was sufficient on his bottom. A child.... It was sufficient.

Q. What if you had some ten rowdy ones? You know that people do that in the country? People don't mind whipping a child with a switch. Or with a ruler. It's done in school.

A. They mind more than you think. There are very few who punish their children with switches.

Q. There are those for whom it does a lot of good?

A. ....

Q. You told us about this other conversation [with] the accused, where she allegedly said that she would be glad if her child died without herself or anyone knowing about it? Without she herself knowing about it?

A. No, excuse me. She said she would be glad if her child died without anyone coming to know about it, including the deceased as well. She was referring to the deceased. Her as well.

Q. Did she name Aurore then?

- 48 -

A. Yes.

BY THE COURT: 'Her as well' refers to Aurore?

A. Yes, "her" refers to Aurore. I understood that that was what was she was saying. That she was talking about Aurore. Those were the words she said... That Aurore would come to die without knowing about it, and that she would not know about it as well.

Q. That she not know about it as well?

A. That people would not know about it, and her as well. Meaning that no one was to know about it, and her as well.

BY MAÎTRE FRANCOEUR, K. C., ON BEHALF OF THE ACCUSED:

Q. What did you yourself understand, Madame?

A. ....

Q. Did you understand that she was saying she wanted Aurore to die without anyone knowing and that she not know about it either?

A. No, not in that way.

Q. What is it?

A. [She was] referring to the death of another little child who died, who was a year and a half old.

Q. Another little child?

A. Yes. You want to know how I understood it? That's how I understood it.

Q. That's how you understood it?

A. Yes.

Q. You prefer to take it like that?

A. Because we knew. Because we are neighbours, we knew.

Q. You knew...?

A. About how she behaved toward her children.

Q. When did she tell you that, Madame?

A. She told me that at the end of January.

Q. At the end of January?

A. Yes.

Q. At your home?

A. Yes.

- 49 -

Q. Were there just the two of you?

A. No, my husband was there as well.

Q. Your husband was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Télesphore Gagnon there? Her husband?

A. No. It was in our own house.

Q. Her husband wasn't there?

A. No.

Q. Would you mind saying whether, in the conversations you related, whether these conversations -- aside from the one you have just mentioned -- took place in the home of the accused, in the presence of her husband, or whether there were only the two of you?

A. When her husband happened to be there, she spoke about it as well.

Q. She spoke of disciplining her children in front of her husband?

A. Yes.

Q. In front of you?

A. Yes.

Q. In front of your husband, without hesitating? Didn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. That the children were difficult? That they had to be punished?

A. Yes.

Q. And she said this freely?

A. Yes.

And the deponent saith no more.

[Signed]M. J. Tremblay
Stenographer

I, the undersigned, sworn stenographer, certify that the foregoing is the faithful transcript of my shorthand notes, the whole in accordance with the law.

Signed

M. J. Tremblay
Official Stenographer

(At 4 p.m. the Court took a 10 minute recess)